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Post by helpmygsp on Nov 27, 2006 1:06:36 GMT -5
Okay, here's the deal. I just rescued a German Shorthaired Pointer from the local Humane Society, and I have absolutely no information about his past. They approximated his age to be around 4 and he does know the basics.....sit, shake, speak, stay, come. The dog seems to be very intelligent and loving, and I want to make sure we work well together. I have had several labs in my life and this is the first time I have had something different.
I have learned that this type of dog is a hunter dog....namely for pigeon / quail hunting. I am not a hunter, don't plan to become one, and did not get this dog because he was a "gun-dog." I am however an outdoors enthusiast and want to have a dog that enjoys going out into the country and letting loose. I am also an avid mountain biker and wouldn't mind having him along if he would stay with me. I want him to be able to be himself and run around in the wilderness, but to come when called. I have never had a problem with this when owning labs.
I have learned that this breed requires a lot of exercise and energy release, and I have found this to be the case. The problem is, I do not trust him to come back to me when called. I have taken him to a couple of schools to test him out (where it is spatious yet fenced in), and once he is off the leash he goes bird crazy....chases every bird in site and totally ignores my calls. He runs, and runs, and runs, and runs until he is really out of breath, and then runs more. I mean, this dog has amazing stamina!!! He is a great dog, and very responsive in the home environment, but once he is off his leash, his mind is 100% focused on birds and nothing else. I cannot seem to break his concentration.
My goal is to somehow break through his intense focus on birds so that he will come when called. I want to be able to control him off the lease so I can let him have more freedom in the open areas and beaches near my house. I read around the internet and have heard about everything from pincher collars, to 400-ft ropes, to electric shock collars, but am not sure about the best way to train him. I have tried bringing treats with me and allowing him to smell them before I release him, and then call him, but he cares more about chasing birds than eating my treats. He finally comes to me when he is completely tired out. I am afraid if the fence was not there, he would just keep chasing birds until he was completely lost or ran over. I cannot help but think that his previous owner may have just kept him in the backyard without a lot of freedom to run and discover, and now when he gets the chance he is out of control.
Any ideas of how I can get this dog to listen to me, to come, and to stay in site when we are out in the wilderness?
Mark
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Post by kaos on Nov 27, 2006 14:21:13 GMT -5
Hi Mark, good job for adopting a rescue dog You say that this adoption happened fairly recently? I am guessing that this might be a part of your problem. Although the dog has had some training in the past, it is possible that as you say he may not have been given much freedom and in addition he may have learned that it is ok to ignore a recall. I know this will be a little frustrating but I would suggest that you will need to go back and train a solid recall from scratch. Perhaps the previous owners used the word 'come' and he learnt to ignore it so start your training with a totally new word (here perhaps?). The trick is to build a 100% success track record with your new cue, so start using it in a low distraction environment where he is sure to succeed - eg call him 'doggy here' when you are about to give him his dinner. Also make a point of calling him around the house just to give him a yummy treat, or to play with a favourite toy. When he is doing well you can take start proofing the recall where there are mild distractions - eg your fenced garden or similar. When it is fabulously reliable here you can gradually start the proofing process in more distracting environments. Perhaps at that stage you can head back to the school and have the dog on a long line so he can't fail the recall. Allow him to chase the birds for a while still on the long line, then pick a moment after the initial excitement has died down a bit and perhaps there are no birds in sight and call him back to you. Reward him with enthusiastic verbal praise and release him back to chase some more as the ultimate reward. Unfortunately there are no short cuts to training a really good solid recall, and it always takes time and careful management. I am also wondering if you can use this dogs strong drive to help with his recall? Experiment in the garden, find a toy he adores, and use play with the toy to reward recalls. This may help to keep his focus around birds etc when he is out if you can produce the favourite toy and make your game more interesting than chasing birds. Good luck, and let us know how you get on.
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Post by kaos on Nov 27, 2006 14:25:10 GMT -5
ps - I am sure it goes without saying, but never ever punish a recall, even if the dog turns up an hour after you called. The dog will always interpret this as being punished for coming back not for being too slow and is the quickest way to undo all your hard work.
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Post by helpmygsp on Nov 28, 2006 2:10:14 GMT -5
Kaos,
Thanks so much for the help. I think you are right and I will start the training right away. I do remember a time when I scolded him for not coming. It was more about my wild instincts then about his. I got mad because he escaped the school premises and I had to chase him intensely because the area is thick with cars and I thought he would get ran over. It scared me to death and when I finally caught up with him, I scolded him pretty good. But really it was my fault. After some time I took him back and used the same command with absolutely no change. I am going to come up with something different and be firm but always positive with him from now on. I think I expected too much from him too fast.....I have only had him for about 3 weeks now. He is still getting used to his new surroundings.
The other thing I learned from this site is I should not repeat my request for him to come. He should come after one request. Do you believe this is true?
To make things a little more complicated, I forgot to mention before that I adopted his cell mate at the same time I adopted him. She is a Weimereiner who has no problems sticking around. In fact, when I call him, she comes (she comes when I call her too) at a moments notice. I have even found that I can take her off the lease and control her rather easily. The other day when I had them both out at the school, I was trying to get him to come with treats. She would always come and I went ahead and gave her a few for being so good. But I wanted to save most of them for him so I stopped giving her treats. After watching him zoom around for a long time (with me yelling for him over and over), I finally told (or motioned) my Weimereiner that she would not get a treat until Clinton came. She seemed to understand and took off after him, and to my surprise sort of tried to herd him back by blocking his path and hitting up against him. He kept running, but soon after he did come.
Now should I train him to come with her around or totally separate. It seems he could learn from her. I do find that he is more controllable and sticks around a little more when she is there.
Also, regarding the toy thing, he is not a big toy type dog. He will pick up a toy, quickly lose interest, and back to birds we go.
Also, it seems he isn't so interested in my treats when he can run after birds. I currently feed him equal portions twice a day (morning and evening). Would it be beneficial to feed him less in the morning, or feed him only in the evening to make him more interested in my treats during training?
Questions, questions, questions. Thanks for your help. Sorry I did not mention the Weimer earlier, I am sure that changes a lot of things. They are a great pair and that is why I got both of them. But the problem with the come command only relates to my German Shorthaired.
Mark
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Post by masha on Nov 28, 2006 5:32:06 GMT -5
Hi Mark
Kaos has given you some excellent advice. The big thing is to let him forget about his habit of ignoring you, and replace that with a new habit of coming to you when you call. I say this because when my dog ignores me, I want her to UNDERSTAND that it is BAD to ignore me, and SUBMIT to my WILL. That does not work. Just step out of that bad situation and replace it with a better one. It will mean not being able to let him off leash for a while as every time you let him ignore you, you are going backwards again.
Turning it into a game that both of you enjoy works. For the beginning focus on getting him to respond to a signal because he knows good things will happen if he does. It sounds as though you might have to experiment to find out what these good things are - maybe he is not interested in treats?
In general it is best not to repeat a command, but that is tough when you are trying to get a dog to come back to you! What I have noticed is that it is usually a bad idea to walk towards a dog if they are not coming when you call. Stand still, or walk away.
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Post by kaos on Nov 28, 2006 14:39:05 GMT -5
Yup, Mark you are absolutely spot on, the recall word should only be said once. The trick is that during the training phase (and this is probably the most important thing you will ever train with this dog) you always set the dog up to succeed. If you think there is a chance that your dog won't come when you call, don't use your new recall word or you will undermine it and teach your dog that it is ok to ignore it. In an emergency and before your recall word has been thoroughly proofed I would simply use the dogs name and run in the opposite direction. Turn it into a game and hope she will follow you. Alternatively you can go to her and grab her - do whatever it takes but don't ruin you new super powerful recall word. Yes, I think it would be an excellent idea to withhold at least one of her meals which you can then hand feed during short trainng sessions around the house or garden, being especially generous when you ask for a recall. This will speed up the process of her realising you are now the centre of her universe and provider of all things good. When you are ready to take her out in a heavy distraction area (and initially I would definitely have her drag a long line to ensure she will succeed) find something extra appealing that she doesn't usually get - roast chicken or beef are usually popular. The real trick is keep the criteria low initially and build a solid history of successes, then don't be stingy with the praise / food / play rewards. What you are aiming for is a conditioned response - ie eventually your dog won't stop to evaluate whether coming to you or chasing birds is more fun, she simply won't be able to help herself and coming will be an automatic response. You will need heaps of repetitions of coming to you on hearing your recall word (once), getting heavily rewarded, and not ever failing. Other things to bear in mind are when you are at the stage of letting her run free in a distracting environment, don't recall then put her on the lead and end her freedom - recall, then release. When you want to go home, perhaps walk quietly up to her and pop the lead on but don't associate your recall word with anything negative. I would train the two dogs separately as often as possible. It is fabulous that the weim likes to come when called. I would never take this for granted and always reward this recall (especially if your pointer is watching from a distance) - remember the reward can be food, your attention, a game with a ball or anything else she loves. Dont make her responsible for training your pointer, that is your job, although obviously the weim setting a good example and showing the pointer what good things happen when you return to your owner will be helpful. I do use lavish, loud and obvious praise on the first dog to arrive when I recall both my dogs, this helps to speed up the response of both dogs
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Post by helpmygsp on Nov 29, 2006 0:31:43 GMT -5
Thanks for all of the advice everyone. I will let you know how it goes......
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