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Post by Dom on Oct 14, 2006 20:28:52 GMT -5
Please read my post in the rant section before reading this.
I don't know what to do about Sadie going in the mode she does when people come up to fence. I have idiots as neighbors and have told them more than once not to tease my dog at the fence. Sadie is affection needy and is NOT aggressive by any standard.
I would never trust her around a toddler just because she may hurt them trying to lick them to death. I thought I would stop any bad behavior with the outside world by keeping her contained within a fence. I was wrong. Dumb ass people think it is ok to stick their hands through the chain fence and over it to pet her because she is too friendly.
I do blame the neighbors I have but this an issue I need to correct with Sadie. I do not want her to harm anyone. I do need help with keeping her from jumping on the fence when people approach.
I cut Sadie's nails the day before so that might be what the girl was bleeding from. Sharp nails, I don't have a file yet.
Of course, like some, I tend to but some blame others. Over all, I know my dog is my responsibility. This is definitely a wake up call for me. I have been lazy in training her not to react to others outside of the fence.
Sadie was trained with PP methods for the most part but I don't feel this will help in this case. I normally don't mind the time PP takes when training. Sadie learns quickly but her behavior near our fence needs to be stopped. IMMEDIATELY!
Anyone that can help me with this problem I would love to hear from. I plan on buying an electronic collar and talking to a trainer this week.
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Post by Nicole on Oct 14, 2006 20:58:37 GMT -5
Dom, I really think the best way to solve this problem is to not have the dog loose and unsupervised at a property line chain link fence. What I would do is:
1. Put an underground fence in WAY back from the property line and train Sadie to it. (I wouldn’t choose this option because I do not want anyone to even see my dog when he is out alone.)
2. Move the fence back into the property and make it a solid fence. If your laws permit, raise the fence to 6 feet, Or,
3. Never leave the dog unsupervised outside.
I have two fences. One is six feet solid and way back from the property line. In front of that is a four feet (by law) spiked fence that fronts the property line. Sunny doesn’t bark at people when out in the front area but goes nuts if a male dog walks by. Consequently, he is never allowed in that area alone period. If he was there alone, he would be friendly to people. That would make me nuts. Some people are mean. I would never give him access to ANYONE ON THIS EARTH if I was not present. You really need to readjust your fencing and your supervision.
Using an e-collar so the dog does not jump or go near the chain link isn't going to stop someone from stealing the dog, throwing poison in the yard, throwing something at the dog or jumping over the fence to say hi to the dog.
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Post by Dom on Oct 14, 2006 21:12:30 GMT -5
Thank you Nicole It is really hard with me being the only one in the house that goes to work. I am away 10 hours of the day. I was thinking of an electric boundary fence just inside our fence. I KNOW what do do when I am here on the weekend. I tell her No when she fixates on something and she will turn back to me and ignore. My husband and my mom are another issue. I go out with Sadie and our new dog Elsie most of the time when they are in our back yard. Correct for digging, barking, etc. I just need to win the lottery so I can be there 100% of time I really don't know what I would do if Sadie is taken from us because of this. This is a new incident so it triggers a lot of emotion for me. Like I said, this a huge wake up call for me. I WILL do whatever necessary to correct the problem. My dog, my responsibility. I can not depend on others to enforce the laws of the land (so to speak). I have a chain outside the back door that will not give access to the fence if attached to the steps. It might be better to inform my husband and mom to attach her to that when not surpervised. The only bad thing is Sadie will not go potty on a leash/chain unless told to do so. I am going to go beat my hubby and mom now...
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Post by kaos on Oct 14, 2006 21:32:38 GMT -5
What a horrible situation for you. I think I have to agree with Nicole that a management solution is the best option here. Unfortunately it seems that people are stupid enough to mess with your fence, so I guess there becomes a responsibility to keep your dogs safe from the stupid people. I am very lucky that my fenced outdoor area is well away from any foot traffic.
Could you perhaps apply some of that green tight meshed shade cloth type material around the inside of your fence? This would prevent people putting hands through, and along with some strategic planting could create a bit of a visual barrier.
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Post by Aussienot on Oct 14, 2006 23:44:42 GMT -5
Barrier aggression is really common in dogs, so don't be too down on Sadie for this particular problem. If you are thinking of putting an electric invisible fence inside your fence line, I'd advise against it. You'd be setting the dog up for internal conflict. Part of the dog would want to respect the fence, part of the dog would want to go to the people. Conflict like this stresses a dog, and her default behavior of being friendly is likely to win with the result of a shock correction. Also you don't want her associating people coming to the fence with her getting shocked.
People control is a better option. I was going to suggest weaving narrow slats of timber into the chain link to prevent people putting their hands through, but shade cloth as Kaos suggested is much easier and probably cheaper.
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Post by Dom on Oct 15, 2006 1:09:50 GMT -5
Thank you all for your suggestions. Unfortunately, others tease Sadie. They stick their hands over the fence to pet her. This problem is going to have to include me and my dog. Barriers I wish worked. The only thing that would work is for me to stick a 10 foot brick wall around our backyard. Nicole you are right. I would supervise her if I had I had the chance during the day but I am at work. My husband gets annoyed and my mom just doesn't listen period. Kaos, I wish I could stick a 15 foot solid wall between my neighbors and but that isn't going to happen. And the neighbors actually stick their hands over the fence to pet the "cute" dog. Aussie thank your for your input. Sadie is not barrier aggressive.., yet. I hope it never comes to that. I think I am going to have to bring in a trainer for this. Sadie will do about 30 commands when I say so she does understand. I can't make my mom understand not to bring the 17 year old girl in our home. The girl's step mom (whom she lives with) does not know about the "incident" yet. I am unsure if I should go to her and tell her what happened. The girls assured my mom "oh I won't tell, my own dogs have bit me before". I am not secure in that statement. I just don't know what to do anymore. The only thing I do know is I need to find a way to control Sadie's behavior around people. That is the only thing I can think of the moment because I can't imagine our house without her.
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Post by sibemom on Oct 15, 2006 7:58:52 GMT -5
Ok here is another thought and what I do with Raven when I can not be out in the yard with her. We have a 5ft chain link fence for the one section of the yard, my choice would have been 6 but my town feels differently Raven is one of those EXTREMLY FREINDLY DOGS, and will turn herself inside out to have a passer by come and pet her. She could very easily scratch someone or accidently nip them just out of pure excitement. When she is outside alone, and now the other two are in their kennel which is 6ft and enclosed in our fenced in yard section, but when she is out I have a tether in the middle of the yard. I am not a big fan of tying a dog out, but if I need to put her out and I can not be there with her, this is a wonderful opption. The tether is just short enough so she can not reach the fence. It does not give any sort of correction like the underground fence would and I do agree with Aussie on that because she is right in this situation it could turn her freindly fence excitement into something just the oppisite. When I can be out there with her then she is loose, and if she jumps on the fence wanting attention all I do is verbal correct and she is fine. I know it's not the greatest solution but it works. This way I can put her out go about my daily tasks and I know she and the passers by are safe. There is always someone home here so my dogs are never outside without us being home. I can share many stories of SICK MINDED INDIVIDUALS who did things to my dogs that were beyond CRUEL, so this method works well. JUST A THOUGHT
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Post by Nicole on Oct 15, 2006 8:20:11 GMT -5
Dom, I am quite positive that you could train Sadie to listen to your commands while you are in the yard..down rather than go to the fence etc. But, and this is a huge but, that is not going to stop her when you aren’t there. She is very friendly and her drive to greet people is strong. You aren’t going to be able to train her to not go to people at the fence when you aren’t around without serious avoidance training and then as Aussie said she may connect the correction to the people and you do not want that. Sunny will down in the front area of my yard if a male dog passes. I could do that a million times and if I am not there he is going to go into territorial drive. I would have to really shock him to stop this behavior but I don’t want to risk that he will become aggressive to dogs. So I remove him from the situation. It is one thing to train a dog to do something when you are there but quite another thing to expect a response when the dog is on its own especially when dealing with driven behavior.
Can you build a kennel area that people can’t access outside the chain link for her to stay in when you are not there.
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Post by Nicole on Oct 15, 2006 8:34:35 GMT -5
I also think that you can put in an underground fence way back from the fence, not near it and train her to it when there are no people. She will learn that she cannot breach a certain point in the yard without connecting it to the people if you train her to it when she is not going to greet people.
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Post by sibemom on Oct 15, 2006 8:43:13 GMT -5
Yes Nicki if she had enough room to put in an underground fence far enough away from the chain link I do think that would work. She would understand where her boundries were and after awhile would probably just ignore passers by. I also think the kennel would be a great opption to. They are not all that expensive I think ours was like $189 at menards, and then I just added another panel to make it bigger.
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Post by Dom on Oct 15, 2006 10:37:45 GMT -5
Thank you everyone.
I have calmed a bit after all this happened. I was a nut yesterday. Not only because the girl got hurt, but because I felt alone in trying to stop future incidents. I had a long talk with my husband and my mom. A very long talk. Sadie will not be allowed in the backyard unsupervised anymore. We have a chain tied to our steps and also an outdoor kennel. We are going to use those. I do not like keeping a dog tethered either. However, if Sadie is tethered it will only be for a short time since 80% of her life is spent inside our home. We also begin to keep her in her kennel. The only problem with being tethered or in her kennel is that she will not potty on or in either. We will make sure that she gets time to run the yard when we are out there with her.
I really do feel bad that all this happened so I am going to contact a trainer to help us with Sadie greeting people when we are around. Honestly, this was something we should have done a long time ago. We have put it off because 95% of the time she is a great dog. She learns very quickly. Her excitement is the only thing that has hindered here training.
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Post by Nicole on Oct 15, 2006 16:42:47 GMT -5
That’s excellent. And getting a trainer to assist you is great too.
Excited greeting is very normal behavior. But it is annoying so training a more acceptable greeting makes life a lot easier. Greeting behavior is ingrained in dogs and it is renewed after a very short period. I can leave my house for two minutes and get a full blown greeting when I come back in the door. With wolves, they greet constantly..the lower ranking dogs greet the higher ranking each and every time they see each other after any period of absence. This reinforces rank and harmony and is for the survival of the pack. Dogs who have low pack drive, who have been bred to work independently don’t exhibit this drive like other higher pack drive dogs. My point is that the dog is doing what it believes it should be doing and it is rewarding because they do get attention from people even when they are acting crazy.
There is dog about 1 and ½ years old that my neighbor adopted as a six month old. OMG...talk about excited greetings. The dog is the sweetest dog I have ever met but she just cannot contain herself. The owners were at their wits end. So I told them that I would not give attention unless she sat and stayed in a sit. We did this for quite a while and just the other day this jumping out of control happy wiggly dog sat for me to pet her without being told. You need some cooperative helpers. Most people say Oh it's Ok if she jumps, nips etc...you need to say no it isn’t Ok and implore people to not reward the craziness but only to give attention when the dog is calm and seated.
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Post by Dom on Oct 15, 2006 22:02:24 GMT -5
Yes Sadie is like Sibemom said Raven is. I am sure that Sadie is worse though. Sadie will go nuts if someone comes in the house or near her. We tried to get Sadie to down when people come to house but she Rambo crawls so she can lick their feet. I am going to toss my hands up and admit defeat. I have trained her to many things but I know there are other trainers that could help her. We have not met one yet but I am hopeful with the one we hired.
I have tried the prong collar on her and Sadie actually gets so excited (on s leash) meeting people that she wines after the correction then goes right back to pulling. I have gotten to the point with her that if I say EH in the yard and she will focus back on me but when my husband or moms tries it, she doesn't respond at all. The big problem is that I work during the day and they do not. I can not be around here 24/7. The only option I can see is that I tell them to keep her tethered or in the kennel when they let her out.
I am going to work on it. I haven't gotten in touch with the trainer yet but I am sure she will see us soon.
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Post by Dom on Oct 15, 2006 22:05:45 GMT -5
And Nicole you are right. I have tried to introduce Sadie to people and tell them to ignore her when she has bad manners. Yet they still reach down and pet her when she is acting nuts. I will not give affection to Sadie when she noses or licks me. She must sit or down first. Harder to train the people than the dogs.
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Post by willow on Oct 16, 2006 9:39:59 GMT -5
Oops, sorry! I posted in your other thread before seeing this one. I will delete my other post, since the problem seems to have been solved. ;D
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