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Post by masha on Sept 6, 2006 5:21:05 GMT -5
I've been reading "Culture Clash" by Jean Donaldson. If I understood her correctly, she recommends getting a dog to stop barking by simulating the thing that makes the dog bark, (ring the doorbell, say) and coupling that with a command to bark. When the dog stops, you say "shush" and treat, and praise. Eventually you get to the point where the dog will bark on command - and stop on command.
Has anyone tried this? Ive read it before and it seems a bit unlikely to me? I dont realy have a problem with Ana barking too much in general, but it would be great to have a "shut up" command in place for those times she goes off her head. But I have a feelling that trying this method will make her start barking on the off chance of being told to shut up, and getting a treat!
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Post by willow on Sept 6, 2006 9:26:36 GMT -5
But I have a feelling that trying this method will make her start barking on the off chance of being told to shut up, and getting a treat! I don't know if a dog, with their "thinking" process could figure that out, but to me, if nothing else, it is a round about way to teach "enough". I have not read that book by Jean Donaldson and do not plan to, because at this point I am not in the least a fan of hers. Her book, "Fight", was recommended to me by the president of the BC rescue when I had a dominant foster and he and Buddy were not seeing eye to eye on things. I was horrified at some of the things she suggested! No wonder there are so many mixed up dogs/people. Anyway, the way I taught Kara to stop barking on command around the house, was to let her bark a few times, and then I would say "enough". If she didn't immediately stop, I would tell her to "go lie down", which she knew. It wasn't long before she was stopping on "enough" and there were no physical corrections or treats involved. Now if she was on leash, which is rare, and she barked at another dog or a person etc., I would tell her "enough" and give a distracting pop, which is lighter than a correction pop, which I would give if she didn't immediately stop, but I never had that problem with her. Of course, if you are looking for a non-corrective way to teach her to stop barking....disregard everything I just said and try what Jean Donaldson suggested. And don't forget to tell us how it worked. ;D
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Post by masha on Sept 7, 2006 6:27:15 GMT -5
Aaah ha ha. Do I detect a little sting in the tail there? Well, it is interesting this thing about correcting a dog. I would be curious to know what you dont like about Jean Donaldson's theorys. She seemed to me to have quite a balanced attitude towards correction? I am still learning how to correct a dog convincingly. I either make the classic mistake of starting soft and escalating - so she just gets to play a barking match with me, or I get angry and overeact and that just does not work. Only time when I have managed to correct her effectively is when she kind of catches me off guard, I am not angry, but something deep inside me goes "enough is enough" and I find myself coming down on her from a dizzying height "ANNA NEEEEEE!" and its over. Cant manufacture it at will though. One time I did that was on the agility course, when she used to have the habit of BITING ME when I got confused. Little nip on the bum. She did it one time too many, and I told her "NOOO! DOWN!!" . And got a long lecture from my agility instructor about not inhibiting her drive, and that I should just stop and ignore her, and so on. Oh well. But its interesting to note that she has never bitten me again since that day.
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Post by willow on Sept 7, 2006 9:02:42 GMT -5
Since I have not read Jeans book "Culture Clash", I can't comment on her correction methods in it, but I do have her books, "Fight" and "Mine", although I seem to have misplaced the book "Mine" at the moment and will have to find it and go over it again, because I have forgotten most of it. In these books she does lean towards clicker/positive reinforcement methods. That is why I made the comment that if you were looking for more "positive" ways to train your dog, use her methods. I didn't mean it as a dig or sting. In the book "Fight" (for dog/dog aggression) I just did not think it is a book for the "ordinary" dog owner, because as experienced as I am, I would not attempt to do what she says to do in her book. She also talks about getting friends with well socialized, "bomb proof" dogs to help you. In the first place, I don't have that many friends with dogs, less with bomb proof dogs, and thirdly, I would not expose their dogs to the danger of being turned loose with a dog aggressive dog, because she does talk about the danger of the dog being attacked and becoming fearful of other dogs because of it, or becoming aggressive themselves etc. In this book she also has chapters on Desensitization, Counter conditioning, Classical Conditioning, and operant conditioning, but I have a hard time understanding it when I read the book (and still do), and thought..."How in the world would I ever be able to utilize what she says when I don't have any idea of what she is talking about?" I did understand, however, what she meant when she said in one part: "This is one of the primary arguments in favor of the use of positive reinforcement as opposed to aversives, such as collar corrections, squirt bottles etc." When I get time I will find the other book and re-read it, as well as go over this book again so I can tell you specifically what I am questioning. ;D
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Post by Aussienot on Sept 8, 2006 21:57:07 GMT -5
In theory, teaching Hush to stop barking is just teaching a contradictory command. Similar to teaching a dog to sit for petting to prevent jumping up.
So again in theory, the best way to teach Hush is immediately after the last bark. You could mark and treat the Hush then because the contrast to 'Bark' would be apparent to the dog. Timing is everything, of couse.
Otherwise I have no idea how to teach it. You can't just walk around rewarding the dog anytime it is not barking.
I helped my mother teach her Lhasa Apso not to run to the door in a barking frenzy anytime the door bell rings. We taught him to run behind the Entertainment center on cue, the cue being the door bell. He's so busy running to his place he doesn't have time to attack the door. But he does bark a few times once he's there.
I have used 'Settle' with Sailor, who is prone to barking at any movement or activity outside the fence when she is outdoors. I am able to say Settle in a drive killing tone that interrupts her barking frenzy and redirects her attention.
Putting a dog into a drop serves the same purpose of interrupting. I did a lot of that with Finn for mouthing when he was aroused, and yes the Agility club I was with at the time warned me about killing drive and considered me cruel. But it never did kill his drive, it just added boundaries on how he was allowed to use the drive. High drive and control are not mutually exclusive.
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Post by masha on Sept 9, 2006 2:52:50 GMT -5
Yes - interrupting the impulse to bark seems to work well. I have got Ana to look at me for a treat when another dog barks at her while she is on leash. She only gets a treat if she turns to look at me and does not respond to the dog at all. This is the only method I have found that works. Getting her to direct her attention on me rather than the dog, and she is a lot less likely to go into that frenzy. Works when I have no treats also. Its not fool proof because if she happens to be close enough, she ocasionally still starts barking. But its easier to stop her.
I'm going to have to find a way to get her to shut up, as she has developed a habit of starting to bark in the middle of the night. Always around the same time. I know we should ignore her, but we worry about the neighbours, and anyway, my husband loses his temper. Last night it must have sounded to the neighbours like he was killing her - she was barking (at around 4:30am) , he rushes downstairs, tries to get her to down, (she carries on charging around and barking) he grabs her by her scruff, she starts SCREAMING BLUE MURDER I"M BEING KILLED AAAAAAAAAAAAAAH.
There was a cat fight going on which probably got her started. I am not sure if ignoring her would work. I've never had the chance to try it, as up till recently we were living with my father and he would always get up to shout at her or let her out when she barks. And its tough to convince Brenz that he is not helping. Well, I think he is not helping!
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Post by willow on Sept 9, 2006 7:59:01 GMT -5
There was a cat fight going on which probably got her started. I am not sure if ignoring her would work. I've never had the chance to try it, as up till recently we were living with my father and he would always get up to shout at her or let her out when she barks. And its tough to convince Brenz that he is not helping. Well, I think he is not helping! Even my otherwise calm, quiet Buddy jumps up and runs downstairs when there are cats squawling outside! He doesn't bark and carry on like Kara does though. And yes, husbands! I always tell mine that he is more annoying than Kara with his loud "*&^%$ SHUT UP!" when she barks! I have read that a dog thinks with this type of "correction" that you are actually "chiming in" and will make them bark all the more. I do know Kara responds much better to a "that's enough" than to "*&^%$ SHUT UP", so perhaps this is true. ;D
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