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Post by triton08 on Aug 31, 2006 14:02:31 GMT -5
Hello,
I am new to the forum and i have 2 austrailian cattle dogs, Bandit and Smokey. they will both be 2 at the end of the year, came from the same breeder, but different litters. My wife and I got Bandit when she 8 weeks old and Smokey when he was 8 months. It was plain to see when we got Smokey that he had no interaction with people. He quickly bonded with Bandit., but it took him probably 5 months before he would feel comfortable around my wife and I.
While both dogs are smart and learn quickly, Smokey has been scared of everything since the day we got him and his timidness effects his willingness to listen to basic commands sometimes. He is literally afraid of everything. When he hears a skateboarder go by the house (happens probably 20 times a day here in San Diego) he runs and hides and paces frantically. He has scared himself by bumping into the wall several times when he didnt expect it to be there. Every day when we walk him past an electrical box near the sidewalk he gets scared and tries to move as far from it as possible because of the soft humming noise it makes somehow scares him. He doesnt like new people and gets very afraid if they try to approach him. Now while his timidness isnt a problem in an of itself, it creates the REAL problem. THE PEEING!
This dog pees more than any dog i have ever seen. If he does something wrong and you try to verbally scold him- he pees and runs away. If he gets too excited, he pees, then runs away peeing while he runs because he knows he isnt supposed to pee. When we go on our daily walk we have to let him outside prior to putting his leash on because he pees when we go to put the leash on him, out of excitement maybe or possibly out of fear. Additionally when he gets worked up it causes him to have to poop as well. So immediately after beginning the walk he poops, and usually poops at least 3 more times during the walk. I am almost positive this is some kind of nervous response. Because he has bonded so much with Bandit, she has become his security blanket and he must always know where she is. If she is not around he gets even MORE nervous than normal.
Another strange thing about the peeing is that he can tell when he is going to do it. sometimes you can call him over (for positive things like getting a treat) and he will get very frantic, keep his distance and pace back and forth really quickly. When he does this my wife and I have to ignore him completely because if we continue to call him he will ALWAYS pee. Anytime he gets excessively excited or afraid he pees.
I have noticed on occasion that if Bandit gets VERY excited she will sometimes happy pee as well, so im not sure if it is something with the breed or not.
Smokey has great playful interaction at times with my wife and I and constantly plays with Bandit, which is a large source of the frustration because the weird behaviour is so unpredictable.
The final incident today took place when my wife was going to give him a treat and he got too excited and peed in the kitchen. We have stopped scolding him for this as it leads to more peeing, and rather than doign that we just let him out in the backyard. So after doing this we let him back in the house and thought the incident was over. Well apparently he got more worked up about it after we left to the store for a few minutes and pooped in the living room while we were gone for no more than 15 minutes.
My wife and I have no idea what to do to make this behaviour stop. When we can tell he is getting "weird" we ignore him, and dont scold him for his peeing because we dont want him to pee more out of fear. He knows that he is not allowed to do it because he runs away after it happens with his ears back. We have never physically abused the dog, so we thought that the behaviour would get better over time but it just isnt.
Sorry about the long post, thanks for reading. PLEASE HELP!
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Post by kaos on Aug 31, 2006 17:12:31 GMT -5
Hi, sorry to hear about the problems you have been having. Sounds like you are handling the nervous / excited peeing exactly right - ie try (I know this is very hard) not to react at all and just let him in the garden. I am sure that over time you will see improvements if you continue to handle things this way, however, short term and in order to try to break the habbit it may be worth looking at crate training him. Ian Dunbar suggests treating this type of problem as you would a puppy house training issue - ie restrict his access to the house when you are not able to supervise by crating, and have him only very near you in one room when you are able to watch him until he improves. Continue to go outside with him and praise like mad when he gets it right. By crating him and restricting access he won't be able to fail and make a mistake which may eventually break the cycle.
It also sounds like he is badly in need of some confidence building. Easier said than done I know but I suspect that training and working with him in short encouraging sessions (away from your other dog) regularly would help him to build a stronger relationship with you. I also think you may need to start taking him for short walks on his own so you can focus on him entirely. With the fear of the electric buzzing thingy I would use good old classical conditioning to change his response - get him to associate the buzz with something good. Food is probably the easiest. Take his entire dinner and feed it to him piece by piece a good distance away from the scary thing but where he can still just hear it. When the food is gone you can turn round and walk away from it - ie food appears when I am near the buzzing and disappears when I leave the buzzing. Very gradually you can decrease the distance between dog and scary thing until he learns to ignore it and looks straight to you for his food.
Good luck and let us know how you get on.
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Post by kaos on Aug 31, 2006 17:15:06 GMT -5
ps - once he has conquered his fear of the buzzing noise, you can move onto a similar process for skateboards. Start with a stationary one, and move onto one that moves very slowly etc.
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Post by willow on Aug 31, 2006 19:51:56 GMT -5
Poor Smokey. It is so sad to see such a fearful dog.
I agree with Kaos that when Smokey urinates from insecurity/fear, ignore it. He truly can't help it and does not plan ahead when he will urinate. Without saying anything, just take him outside. Also, even though he is urinating out of insecurity/fear, make sure you clean up each place he went with an enzymatic cleaner to make sure he doesn't get the idea that going there again is o.k. He won't remember that he couldn't help peeing there, because he was afraid, only that he did, therefore it must be o.k. to do it again.
The number one rule in my book is that YOU do not do anything but remain calm, and assertive as the pack leader should, and don't make a big fuss about his fears, or over him when he is reacting fearfully.
Smokey has to face his demons and get over his fears on his own. You can not do it for him, so don't even try! The only thing you can do is provide food, shelter water for him, a stable home life, exercise and love at the proper time.
The proper time to show love is NOT when he is reacting fearful to someone or some thing.
I have an 8 yo registered male Border Collie that I adopted 2 years ago. I don't know much about his past life, except that he came from a farm and was kept tied to a tree outside and used for breeding. He was emaciated and had a short, dry, brittle coat. He also had the deadest look in his eyes that I have ever seen in a dog. It broke my heart.
But it doesn't matter what his past life was like or why he came to me with all these fears. It was up to me to do the best I could to help him over come his fears and to be the greatest dog he could be.
When I got him he did not know what an electric appliance was. When I picked up the t.v. remote, he slunk away. If I picked up a broom to sweep off the deck he slunk away. He would not go near the washer/dryer when they were on, but since I feed the dogs in the laundry/mud room, I did not feed him in another room, but I put his bowl right next to the dryer, and in no time they did not bother him at all. He was scared to death of the vacuum cleaner and so on and so on...you get the idea. He is also afraid of gun shots, fire works, and thunder.
Buddy is not afraid of people or other dogs and is great with all other animals. He is the sweetest, most patient, calmest and least demanding dog I have ever had.
How I handled Buddy's fear is to just ignore him when he reacted fearfully to some thing. I did not try to call him to me or say things like, "It's o.k., Buddy. It won't hurt you" or shower him with love/attention. I totally ignored him and went about my normal daily life. The first time we had a thunder storm he slunk into the basement and would not come back up even after the storm was over. I did go down, put a leash on him and bring him upstairs, because it had been a long time since he had been outside and I was afraid he would go potty down there and I didn't want to start that habit on top of every thing else.
We have a freight train that goes past our house twice a day. The path I walk the dogs on to get to the woods, and fields is close to the tracks. The first time we were on the path when a train went by, Buddy freaked and didn't know which way to go, so I calmly called him to me and held onto his collar until the train was past, then I just said to him..."Come on, let's go" and continued on our walk. If some one shot off a firecracker or gun (in the distance) when we were on our walk and Buddy started to turn and slink for home, Kara and I just continued walking ahead normally, and Buddy would soon follow us. He loves his daily walks. ;D
The second time a train went by when we were on our walk, all Buddy did was run to me and sit close to me until the train was past. I did not speak to him until it was gone. The third time and every time now, he does not even react to the train, but just keeps walking as if it isn't even there.
He is still nervous when fireworks or gun shots are shot off close by, and if there is a storm. If he is outside, he wants to come in, but now he does not run and hide. The last storm we had which was just a week or two ago, it woke me up, but Buddy slept through it by my bed.
Today my husband and I took the dogs to the woods. We built a fire to cook our lunch and I found out Buddy is afraid of the snap, crackle pop of wood burning. He slunk around a bit at first, but I did not react to his fear and by the time we left he was not paying any attention to it.
When he is calm and not afraid I give him lots of love and attention, but I do not give him love/attention if he comes to me and demands it.
I believe Buddy has achieved my goal for him of being the greatest dog he can be, and I am so proud of him!
One last thing. Although I always exercise my dogs together, I never train them together. I always train one on one.
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Post by kaos on Aug 31, 2006 22:50:38 GMT -5
'just ignore him when he reacted fearfully to some thing. I did not try to call him to me or say things like, "It's o.k., Buddy. It won't hurt you" or shower him with love/attention. I totally ignored him and went about my normal daily life.'
I totally agree with this, good advice from Willow.
'He would not go near the washer/dryer when they were on, but since I feed the dogs in the laundry/mud room, I did not feed him in another room, but I put his bowl right next to the dryer, and in no time they did not bother him at all.'
This is a great example of classical conditioning, exactly the same technique as I had in mind for dealing with the electric buzzing. Feeding to give the scary object or noise a positive association is definitely not about trying to verbally reassure your dog or coax them at all - best to keep quiet, stay calm and simply produce the food.
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Post by willow on Sept 1, 2006 8:03:51 GMT -5
This is a great example of classical conditioning, exactly the same technique as I had in mind for dealing with the electric buzzing. Feeding to give the scary object or noise a positive association is definitely not about trying to verbally reassure your dog or coax them at all - best to keep quiet, stay calm and simply produce the food. Yes, except that I don't make a "point" of giving him treats when he reacts fearfully to something. Not that I don't ever give treats, but when I do, it isn't for a reason, such as a reward for doing what is right, or because he is afraid. For instance, yesterday as I said, we cooked our lunch over a wood fire and Buddy reacted with fear to the wood. I had pieces of raw meat to give them as "treats", simply because we were going to be eating and I don't like to make them feel like they are being left out! ;D But...when he reacted with fear, I didn't go and get the treats and start feeding them to him. I am not saying that this will not work, mind you, I just don't want to have to always have treats on hand to shower on him when he shows fear of something, because for one thing, he was so afraid of everything when I first got him, I would have been stuffing treats down him every time I turned around and I wouldn't have gotten anything else done. ;D If you have the time to do this, that is fine, but for me simply ignoring him and acting like nothing out of the ordinary was going on he reacts like, "Oh, o.k....the other pack members are not freaking out at this monster, so it must be a "friendly monster" and nothing to be afraid of. ;D
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Post by sibemom on Sept 1, 2006 8:22:36 GMT -5
Yes I agree Fearful dogs are a bit harder to deal with because we humans have the reaction to cuddle them when they are acting afraid. I have a dog like that maybe not quite to the extreme of the ACD but she is still a Timid Fearful Girl at times. What has worked for me was already covered but to recap that, I make nothing of it, in fact sometimes I even FORCE her into facing some of her monsters. If I notice that a household noise is causeing her to be afraid I make sure that noise continues for a longer period of time, like say the buzz of an alarm clock I let that buzzer just ring and ring and ring don't say a word and let her investigate it on her own. It works. Here's and example, THE ALL SCAREY PLASTIC BAG I noticed that she was terrified of one that was blowing across the yard, so I went in got about 20 of them went outside and threw them all over the lawn, I crinkled them let her see me touch and step on them and in a matter of minutes she was grabbing them and playing with them. The more they are afraid of something the more exposure they need to that monster, and you can call it conditioning, management what ever you choose, but when you make them fact the fear, and you stay calm about it and don't make a bit deal out of it, the fear goes away
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Post by willow on Sept 1, 2006 9:38:14 GMT -5
If you had fed her treats at the same time, would this be considered "counter conditioning?" But, then again, in the case of the plastic bags, YOU were the one who deliberately brought out what she was afraid of and made her face her fear..... What is this called?
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Post by sibemom on Sept 1, 2006 10:31:52 GMT -5
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Post by willow on Sept 1, 2006 13:10:51 GMT -5
In my experience, a dog will learn an ob command very well and perhaps faster when using treats/toys...provided you have a treat/toy motivated dog, but I question how solid this foundation is, because using this method, I don't believe the dog considers you the "pack leader"...just a treat dispenser and in order for the dispenser to work, he/she has to do the command. At some point something more attractive than the treat/toy will come along and the dog will blow you off, because he/she is working for the treat/toy not you. As for using treats as a distraction for an unwanted behavior...i.e. being afraid of something or say for aggression, again...the dog may be able to be distracted by the treat, but has he/she really learned not to be afraid of the object or be aggressive? I seriously doubt it. If it did, there would not be so many aggressive/fearful dogs, because in our modern day most people reach for the treats for every thing instead of the training collar.
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Post by Nicole on Sept 1, 2006 16:16:30 GMT -5
in the case of the plastic bags, YOU were the one who deliberately brought out what she was afraid of and made her face her fear..... What is this called? I think this is called flooding. ;D When Reign lived here and he was a pup they were power washing the other side of my fence. The water was so strong and intense coming through the fence and it was so loud it sounded like we were being attacked. Reign was not afraid of much but this caused him concern. So I started laughing and I walked right outside and he looked at me and then ran out and started playing in the hard water streams. ;D As Willow and Ann said, your reaction is what will usually determine the dog's reaction.
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Post by willow on Sept 1, 2006 18:52:10 GMT -5
Ah yes! Now I remember! Thanks Nicki! ;D
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Post by kaos on Sept 2, 2006 2:31:55 GMT -5
'As for using treats as a distraction for an unwanted behavior...i.e. being afraid of something or say for aggression, again...the dog may be able to be distracted by the treat, but has he/she really learned not to be afraid of the object or be aggressive?'
The context in which I was suggesting using food above was not as a distraction or to teach a specific behaviour (utilising operant conditioning), but utilising classical conditioning to change the dogs association with a specific object or noise. Yes, it will work to change the dogs emotional response to that object which is why it is so powerful. Has been proven time and time both in the lab and by very well respected trainers in the field.
No, I don't think this would be practical every time your dog was slightly worried by something, and totally agree that calm confident leadership will deal with most normal everyday worries and insecurities for most dogs, I am recommeding this technique for a specific problem which is severe and calls for the 'big guns'.
Regarding whether using this technique compromises your status as pack leader - in short I don't see how it could? No more than producing a bowl with their dinner every day does???
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Post by willow on Sept 2, 2006 9:33:55 GMT -5
' The context in which I was suggesting using food above was not as a distraction or to teach a specific behaviour (utilising operant conditioning), but utilising classical conditioning to change the dogs association with a specific object or noise. Yes, it will work to change the dogs emotional response to that object which is why it is so powerful. Has been proven time and time both in the lab and by very well respected trainers in the field. Maybe I am beginning to understand. Tell me if I am or not. In the case of field training a dog. Yes, ideally the way to train a puppy/dog not to be afraid of a gun shot is by giving them their dinner, and while they are eating and you are a distance away, you shoot off a low caliber gun...like a .22. As they become conditioned to the noise, you get closer. Then you go back to a distance again and use the louder shotgun you will be using in the field and repeat the exercise. A lot of good dogs are "ruined" because owners don't do this, but take them out in the field and start shooting over them...hence the term, "Gun Shy". With some "Gun Shy" dogs, if you go back and start over in the manner I said above...."yes." They definitely can be "conditioned" to the sound of the gun. I say, "some", because some have been so traumatized, or because of their basic temperment, even using "classical conditioning" (the right term?) will not get them over their fear. This is why so many dogs who are gun shy are useless for field dogs, and why so many dogs who are afraid of thunder cannot be totally re-habilitated, even by feeding them while playing a sound track of a thunder storm or by feeding them/giving them treats during an actual storm. A lot of dogs become so panicky...(my sister's dog jumped through a window screen to get into the house when she heard thunder), that they are not in the least bit interested in food. The first time we had a storm and I found out Buddy was terrified of thunder I DID try giving him treats/distracting him, but the only thing he was concerned about was the noise around him and he would not take the food. He is still "concerned", but by ignoring him during a storm, he now will lie quietly near me, or on his bed, and not pace/hide as he did when I first got him, but he still isn't interested in food/treats during a storm. Oh, yes...and then there are fireworks! People around us shoot them off all year around and Buddy is terrified of them too, and with the same reaction as with thunder. Not interested in food/treats. Now after hearing them all summer, and by me not making a "big deal" over them, he is better and will even sleep during them if they are not real close. Since he is now "conditioned" not to react as he once did, but I didn't use food, can it still be called "Classical Conditioning"? I would also like to comment, that with a lot of dogs, Field or otherwise, they are not afraid of loud noises right from the beginning. We were always cautious when starting a dog/puppy to the gun, because we did not want to chance ruining an otherwise good dog, but we have know others who just took their dogs out and started shooting birds over them and they never did react negatively to the gun. I wonder if this type of dog could be conditioned to be afraid by the owner being afraid/insecure and transmitting it to the dog? I am assuming it could be, although like I said...there are some dogs that nothing phases, no matter what the owner does! Since we "hi-jacked" this thread, I think we had better start a new thead in the training section.
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Post by espencer85 on Sept 19, 2006 14:17:56 GMT -5
I also think your dog does not see you as pack leader, if he does he knows you are in charge and he can trust you in " dangerous" situations, he knows you can handle it yourself to protect "the pack", the pack leader is the first line of defense, if he does not see you as a pack leader he will think the dangerous situation or thing will defeat you and thats why he runs away, he thinks you are not gonna be able to handle it either
The energy you have in that moment is very important, if you are nervous because you know in the street he is afraid of everything then you are all the time looking the next thing that is gonna trigger the behavior, your dog will sense that and will think that since you are nervous (even if is for a different reason) then he is right to be afraid
Go outside on walks but act like you dont care anything out there, act confident, play like if you were the king of the block, your dog will sense that right away and will feel protectec by you, a good leader is a confident leader
If he gets afraid of something then you can do the quick pop correction with the leash, that will distract him of what was making him afraid and you can tell him something like "ignore", he will sense it as "i'm the leader here and i can handle it"
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