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Post by meghanize on Aug 29, 2006 16:15:14 GMT -5
Hello, all. My name is Meghan and I live in north Georgia with my fiance Daniel and our two dogs, Buckley and Heidi. Buckley is a year-old golden retriever who can be described as just a big, clumsy, happy oaf with a heart of gold and has been with us since he was three months old. His basic obedience training is solid and he's a great dog.
Very recently I adopted Heidi from one of those tear-jerker adoption days at a local pet store. She was estimated to be four-six months old and my vet thinks she may be a Jack Russell/fox terrier mix. She's a sweetheart, very intelligent and eager to please but is terribly shy... sometimes.
She plays very aggressively, like any terrier and has the strength and endurance of a little bull. She adores Buckley but plays a bit too rough, biting him and pulling his skin. We've taught her not to use teeth in play with us, but she's still rowdy.
Her behavior 90% of the time is as stated above. The other 10%, she's sporadically shy. For instance, today we've been working on the " down" command. As I introduced the command, I said " down" and placed her body into the down position, then praised. As she started to figure it out, I incorporated play and treats as rewards for the correct response. When she was told to " down" during play, she hit the floor, tail wagging, no questions asked. After a good twenty minute session of this, and I returned to my home office to go back to work.
She went to sleep at my feet and an hour or so later I decided to take her out for a potty break. She followed me out of the room and to the front door, and I decided to have her " down" before I opened the door. (I usually make her sit first.) When I issued the command, however, she tucked her tail and submissively urinated on the carpet -- and did not " down".
Several more times throughout the day she displayed the same behavior. I can't really recognize a pattern other than that if the command is issued during a playful, excited state, she follows it perfectly. Otherwise, it's the submissive posture and refusal to obey the command. When this occurs, I've been gently putting her into the down postion and giving her a pat on the head or a scratch behind the ears with no verbal praise.
Any ideas on what may be triggering this? Most importantly, what can I do to help put this behavior behind us?
Your thoughts and suggestions are appreciated.
Meghan
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Post by kaos on Aug 30, 2006 22:05:30 GMT -5
Hi Meghan - I can only assume that poor Heidi has at some point been asked to down as or before a punishment. You say you only recently adopted her, so it seems likely that this may well sort itself out over time as she settles in and learns to trust you. In the meantime, I think I would carry on asking for the downs during play and reinforcing like mad with something yummy or continued play. Perhaps after a week or so of only using down during play you could try perhaps prior to feeding when you have her bowl in your hand. If she cooperated dinner would strongly reinforce the positive association with 'down'. You could always try this in the garden so there is no clean up if she does wee again?
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Post by willow on Aug 31, 2006 6:55:39 GMT -5
Hi Meghan - I can only assume that poor Heidi has at some point been asked to down as or before a punishment. I find that when dogs do this it is because you have changed your tone of voice and body language and they are confused and don't understand what you want. When I first got Kara, I tried the excited/play/treat method to train her, because PP trainers said this is ''THE ONLY" humane way to train, and while she responded well to this when we were outside and in this "mode", when we were inside and I would just ask her to do some thing in a normal tone, she would not respond and would actually hang her head like she did some thing wrong. Since I do not want my dogs to only obey when I am happy/excited and they are excited/playing, I stopped using that method immediately and went back to training using a calm voice and just praise as a reward. Works for us! ;D
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Post by meghanize on Aug 31, 2006 9:03:46 GMT -5
You could always try this in the garden so there is no clean up if she does wee again? I think that's going to become a must! Thanks for your insights -- I'm no expert, but her shyness seems so erratic that I wonder if it's not so much a result of abuse as a total lack of socialization. Most pups and young dogs instinctively understand certain things about people -- if you get down on the ground with your butt up in the air, it means playtime -- but Heidi doesn't get it. I wonder if she had any exposure to people or other dogs before she found her way to the pound? I find that when dogs do this it is because you have changed your tone of voice and body language and they are confused and don't understand what you want. I thought maybe that was what was going on at first, too. After I tried a few more times with " down" in a high-pitched, playful, excited voice and she still cowered and urinated, I realized that it had nothing to do with tone of voice! I'm so confused by it... Since I do not want my dogs to only obey when I am happy/excited and they are excited/playing, I stopped using that method immediately and went back to training using a calm voice and just praise as a reward. How did you wean Kara off of 'playtime training' into normal everyday calm-voice/reward training?
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Post by Dom on Aug 31, 2006 10:25:42 GMT -5
From my experience, it is normally my tone, how I position my body (hand gestures included) or new environment that changed the reaction of my dogs. Something as small as changing which hand I used for a command could confuse Sadie when she was learning. I wanted to add that when I was training Sadie she would become very uncomfortable and nervous if I had her down on certain textures or surfaces (mainly linoleum).
After she urinates, what is your reaction? Do you comfort, correct, or ignore? I would verbally correct if it was a potty training issue but for sub urination I would ignore and lead her away from the area. As soon as you see her relaxing then you praise. You can clean up the mess later when she isn't around.
You said she understood down earlier. Were you more on her level (bending down/leaning forward) during the first time you were teaching? Was Buckley around?
I would take the advice of Kaos and Willow to try and change the sub urinating. I assume Heidi has been checked by a Vet and doesn't have a UTI?
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Post by meghanize on Aug 31, 2006 12:48:22 GMT -5
Yes, Heidi has been vet checked and has a clean bill of health, no infections. She's pretty solidly housetrained, so I don't scold when she submissively urinates. Instead, I just pick her up and take her outside as if she needed to pee (half the time she goes, if only as a token) and then clean up the mess. I've read enough to know not to scold or coddle her as both will only encourage the behavior. Do you think I'm encouraging it by taking her out? I will pay more attention to praise her as soon as she relaxes.
Yes, she understands the command perfectly. There doesn't seem to be any pattern to when she obeys -- I can be sitting, kneeling, standing, crouching -- it doesn't matter so long as we're engaged in play. I also haven't noticed any aversion to " down"ing on certain surfaces, but I have noticed that she consistently freaks out at " down" at the front door to go outside.
Buckley is never around during our trainging sessions -- she's too easily distracted by him.
I know as much background on the issue as possible will help, so I'd also like to highlight again that that she's VERY aggressive in play. I was speaking with my fiance about it today and he mentioned that she'd been getting more aggressive with him lately, biting and pulling his clothes, snapping hard, etc. I've not noticed any difference with me, but I'm also around her a lot more and might not have noticed a gradual change?
Today it got even worse. I took her outside to potty and when we returned to the front door I asked her to sit (we always sit before entering or exiting the house). She sat and I verbally praised, then asked her to down. Her ears slicked back and she ducked her head as if afraid, so I reached down to press her shoulders forward into the down position. When I did, she snapped at me -- did not make contact, but gave a little snarl/bark and snapped.
I'm baffled.
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Post by Dom on Aug 31, 2006 13:20:50 GMT -5
I don't think you are encouraging the behavior by taking her out. I would do the same thing. Hmm so the cause for her being submissive and/or defensive has something to do with the front door. Do you have a leash in your hands during that time? A lot of people here have been training dogs for years so I am sure they can help you better than I can with that. I can only help with issues I have direct experience with. That is why in many of my post I mention Sadie (our 2 year old shep/husky). Sadie (see there I go again ) was scared of our front door (at 12 weeks) but it was because of a dream catcher we had on the wall. Every time we opened the door the wind would catch it and the noise would frighten her. We didn't want to rearrange the house so we had her do commands a slightly further distance away (a distance she was comfortable with) from the front door. We gradually decreased the distance until she ignored the dream catcher. We added a lot of "listen" (basically watch me command) to break her focusing on the item she feared. Always make Heidi wait until you go out the door first then release her. Do not let her lead the way. The main goal is to have her wait at the door. If having her sit is working do not force her to down there until a bit later. It is very likely that Heidi will continue to play rougher if you don't set a limit. Terriers are not my cup of tea. I have never owned one but the ones I have met are very determined little critters. I wouldn't leave it up to Buckley to set the rules of what is too rough. Teaching "leave it" or "easy" might help. I use them differently. If Elsie is getting too rough with Sadie and I say "leave it" then the game is OVER. No more interaction is allowed. If I say "easy" it means if you both want to continue to play then both butts and bodies remain on the floor during a play sessions. If either dog gets to rough outside I can say "EH" (my version of NO) and they stop the behavior and continue playing another way. It may be easier to use one command but I prefer being able to set the intensity of play and allow them to keep interacting. Do not allow Heidi to bite or pull the clothes of you or your husband. It should not be considered play. Correct her for the behavior and redirect her to an appropriate chew toy. Heidi may enjoy a buster cube to run out some of her energy. It also makes her use her head. I know terriers are high energy dogs. You need to find something to wear her out mentally and physically. Good luck! ;D
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Post by willow on Aug 31, 2006 14:04:58 GMT -5
How did you wean Kara off of 'playtime training' into normal everyday calm-voice/reward training? With Kara I just quit using the excited tone and went to a calm tone. At first she didn't get it, and would act un-certain, but after showing her what I wanted a few times, she would " drop" during play when I used the calm tone. Are you still asking Heidi to " down" in an excited voice when she is playing outside? Does she still do it happily then? I still think she is confused and doesn't understand what you want when she is inside. Also, if she becomes so excited that she starts mouthing/ripping clothes, I would stop all games that excite her to that point. What does your husband do when she becomes overly excited? What did you do when she growled/snapped at you? The reason I adopted Kara is because she was relinquished to a rescue due to chasing/nipping heels. After I got her she only tried it twice and that was to males with loud voices and quick movements, but each time she did it I came down on her HARD, by telling her, "NO...!! Go lie down." Each time she would glance at the person and growl, I corrected her again. I have never had to physically correct her with a training collar, but I would not have, and will not hesitate to correct her with one if need be. I do not want to lose her because she bit someone! I also used to play "tug" with her, but have since stopped, because of her tendency to want to nip when excited. I know others say as long as the dog understands to "leave it" when you tell them to, there is no problem, but even though Kara will immediately let go when I tell her to, I did notice she became more aggressive towards small animals when I started playing tug with her. Maybe just a coincidence, but I am not taking any chances. I never played "tug" with any of my other dogs and they did not seem to miss it. With this type of dog, which Heidi is too, I think it is imperative that you keep them calm and not excite them with rough play etc., such as saying things to them in an excited voice like..."What's that? Is that the KITTY?" Good way to teach them to chase cats. My brother in law did that with their Min Pin, only on peopleand other dogs...as a joke, ("Who's that? Bite him!" ),but now it is not a joke that the dog is people and dog aggressive.
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Post by meghanize on Aug 31, 2006 14:41:06 GMT -5
Well, I was so shocked that she'd snapped at me that I yelled "NO" and popped her on the end of the snout with my fingers. Not a harsh reprimand by any standards, but in her case it was probably traumatic (it seems like absolutely everything is). Up until today and the snapping I'd never laid a finger on her as a punishment. For instance, when she steals our shoes from the downstairs 'lobby' I give her the "aaah ahh!" and she usually drops the shoe and high-tails it.
I think you may really be onto something, Willow. Heidi may just not be cut out for excited play. When she gets excited with Daniel, myself, or even Buckley, she tries to be aggressive -- in a playful way, but still a way that could get her in a lot of trouble if she nipped the wrong person or dog. I'm not really sure how Daniel handle her nipping, but I pull away and turn my head for a moment and ignore her when her teeth touch. When she plays with Buckley she's an all out biting maniac, nipping his heels, biting his nose and jowls, and just generally being a demon -- and he puts up with it. We've started yelling to distract her, then praising when she behaves calmly with him, but so far to no avail. Thus, we've been seperating them more lately.
When we do our " down" practice, we're usually inside. If I ask her to do it while she's playing and excited outside, she still does it, which confuses me. It's just if she's not playing that she acts terrified??
Dom, how would you have dealt with the snap? I realize that in issues like this, there will always be a thousand opinions and that people are likely to get somewhat vocal about them, but I'm interested in your standpoint.
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Post by willow on Aug 31, 2006 15:29:07 GMT -5
When we do our " down" practice, we're usually inside. If I ask her to do it while she's playing and excited outside, she still does it, which confuses me. It's just if she's not playing that she acts terrified?? O.k., so I understand this: When you are playing with her outside and you give her the " down" in a happy excited voice she responds positively, but when you do the same thing inside, when you are not playing with her etc., she acts afraid? What I would do is completely start over with her. If you want to use an excited voice and treats with her, go ahead, but I would not at this point tell her to " down" during play inside or outside until she will do the down 100% both inside and outside at times other than when you are playing. Then I would incorporate it into play sessions, if you want. She is still very young and you may be going too fast for her, before she understands completely what you want, eventhough she is intelligent and seems to catch on quickly, therefore the confusion and aggression. I do something similar with Kara when we are in the house playing. I take one of her toys, or a ball, and tell her to "go back!" She will turn and run farther away from me, and turn and look at me. I will tell her to "sit" or " drop" and then I will tell her "catch" and I will toss the toy/ball to her, she will catch it, bring it back to me and we will do it again. We both love this game! ;D But, I only started this game with her after she knew what "sit" and " drop" (down) were. Then, on our walks, (she is off leash), occassionally when she was a distance from me, I would say her name and when she looked at me, I would tell her to " drop"...which she does. (I also use the hand signal for " down" along with it). To release her, I say..."O.k...good girl" in a happy voice, and she is so pleased with herself. Even though she knew what " drop" was in the house and outside, when I began to tell her on our walks when she was at a distance from me, she wanted to come towards me, so I would step towards her and block her, say "No, drop". It only took a couple of times and she understood that I wanted her to immediately lie down where she was, but she is very intelligent too! There are others here who do agility etc. , which I do not, so they may know a better way of teaching this and hopefully will jump in here. This is just the way I did it and it worked for us. ;D
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Post by kaos on Aug 31, 2006 16:54:49 GMT -5
I agree with Willow that I would always give the 'down' cue in a calm voice and try to be consistent with this whether the context is during a play session or anywhere else. I also agree that if play is starting to become too aggressive it it time to redirect onto an appropriate toy, or quit and allow her to calm down for a couple of minutes.
Re the nip when you pressed her shoulders into the down, if she was fearful at that point the nip was probably quite understandable (although obviously not acceptable). If you put yourself in the position of having a giant you are not yet sure you can trust push you down to where you feel very vulnerable and are uncomfortable with enough to wet yourself on occasions you can see my point. If you add to that a history of possibly being punished by a previous giant when in this position....
Could you try simply to go right back to basics and lure the down with food? It could possibly be just enough of a distraction for her to forget about being scared for a moment and break the cycle of negative associations with going down outside of play, and would avoid the confrontation of having to physically force her to go down when she ignores the verbal cue. I worry that any kind of punishment you inflict she will associate with the down and not necessarily the bite ie 'people are unpredictable when they ask you to go down, and may get cross with me'
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