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Post by beardiegirl on Jul 4, 2006 10:21:48 GMT -5
Hey! I'm new to the board, and I'm looking for a few solutions to train my seemingly untrainable Bearded Collie, Findlay . Finn is five years old, and although *very, very* friendly, he's got a mind of his own (which is good for individuality I s'pose, but not helpful for training) and is quite aloof at times. He understands most commands (sit, wait, down, heel, come etc...) and is an incredibly quick learner (I guess that's a sheepdog characteristic) but only performs satisfactorily when it suits him. A few years ago, we adopted a second dog, Abbie, who I trained. Abbie is incredibly loyal, something that Finn is lacking of... but Finn doesn't respond to the training that I used on Abbie : positive re-enforcement. He also obviously has dominance issues--- growls at me if I hug him, doesn't let me handle his paws etc. Although *I* am the one who feeds, walks, plays with, trains, pets (etc.) Finn still is more loyal to my mom. It doesn't make sense. I'm the "source to all good things in life" but it's like he knows that she's the one who'll yell at him, so he'd better be nice... sooo... (get to the point) here's to sum it up. I need a strategy to fix these three problems: --over-dominance --unresponsiveness... and --aloofness CAN SOMEBODY HELP ME?? Thanks! PEACE --HAILS
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Post by sibemom on Jul 4, 2006 19:53:41 GMT -5
First off Welcome back Now lets think about how your interactions with Finn have been so far You say you Feed, Water, Play, Train etc... so you would think the dog should look to you as the GIVER OF ALL GOOD THINGS in his mind he might just be looking at you as one of the servants put on earth to do his bidding He is bonded to your mom so that tells me that there is nothing wrong with him in that department, but then you said he growls at you when you hug him This could be a long shot BUT I am going there anyway. Is it possiable that your dog has some jealousy towards you where your mom is concerned? Is it possiable that maybe he just veiws you as an equal or a litter mate? Because you are younger and because this breed in particular is EXACTLY HOW YOU DESCRIBED , head strong, stubborn, kinda bossy, listens when they feel like it etc... I think you need to make your stand quite strong with him. You need to start ALL OVER WITH HIM, and show him that you require the same kind of respect from him that he shows your mom. I would start him on NILIF which we have a link to. Print it out and study it, this is the best thing for a dominent dog. Do you own a dog crate for his size? If so I would use it. I would not allow him to do anything unless you say so and if his behavior does not please you, then correct him. I would get a pinch collar, and again read the thread we have about fitting one, I would use that collar and only that collar for corrections. It is fine to praise him for a job well done, BUT NO FOOD REWARDS, not with a dog that growls at you when you go to hug it, NOPE Finn needs to understand that just because YOU are under the controll of your parents right now because of being a teenager, HE is under the controll of ALL HUMANS in your household and that means showing the same repect to all two legged creatures. I think it's just a matter of him understanding his place with you. I also would not give him any extra attention I would kind of ignore him unless you are drilling. HE NEEDS TO EARN EVERYTHING FROM YOU. It is kind of foolish for a dog to "Bite the hand that feeds them" so to speak but with some dogs they have the attitude like I said before "SERVE ME PUNY HUMAN I AM THE ALMIGHTY CANINE " Well that never flys in this house because our favorite saying here and on this board is "THOU SHALT NOT PISS OFF THE ALPHA" and you can fix it with Finn. I hope this helps
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Post by Aussienot on Jul 4, 2006 23:13:37 GMT -5
Yes, NILIF is the way to go with him. You need to start acting like a leader being fair and consistent but always in charge. From this point on, Finn doesn't get to decide when he eats, when and where he sleeps, when he plays - in fact he doesn't get to make any decisions at all.
All toys should be put away. Only bring out a toy when you choose to play with him, and then the toy goes back into storage.
Make sure you go through doorways, hallways and stairs first. Make him wait until you release him to follow you. And if he's sleeping on a bed, kick him off and make him sleep on his own bed. Also no furniture privileges.
And while I would be quick to respond to growls in most cases, I'd caution you against hugging him. Hugging is a human and a primate thing. Dogs do not hug. To a dog, throwing a leg over another dog is a sign of dominance. Throwing both legs over only happens in a to the death fight and while mating. But dogs never hug.
Most pet dogs will endure a hug from a person they respect, but they don't enjoy it. And some dogs will actively object, as Finn is doing. Respect the growl in this case. Nothing in Life is Free should lead to the dog respecting you - but it's a two way street. You also have to act like the dog's leader in a way that the dog understands at all times, and pack leaders just don't hug.
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Post by beardiegirl on Jul 5, 2006 3:58:20 GMT -5
OK, thanks for the replies! So I need to start FROM THE BEGINNING. OK. And no treats, just praise... that works for me! Saves *HAYLEY'S* well earned money . No extra attention, and purely positive reinforcement *just won't cut it*. I get it. ;D Lord those prong collars look painful... what does a prong collar *do*? Does it work like a choke collar? I had a choke collar that I had for years, but I figured that it was cruel so I threw it out *yesterday*. LOL. I already have a collar that sprays citronella which he *hates*, so maybe that would cut it? I don't want to be associated with pain, even though I do want him to understand that I *will* correct him. I figured that positive re-enforcement worked for all dogs, but I guess not now . No toys either? So I will remove the toys from the garden, and he'll only get the toys when I give them to him. I really don't like to scream at him...he usually doesn't react well, and spooks or even does the opposite of what I asked him to do. Is it alright if I correct him by using the bark collar and calmly commanding him to do something else? Or is that WAAAAYYY too positive? Is "No" a *must* command? I will keep everybody updated! --HAILS
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Post by sibemom on Jul 5, 2006 6:17:14 GMT -5
I would LOOSE the citronella collar Think about it would you like to be sprayed in the face with citronella? That in itself would make me GROWL AT SOMEONE The pinch collar is not cruel or painful, it mimics what the mother dog does to her pups to correct by pinching the backs of their necks dogs understand this feeling. I find that for an owner who is having problems getting the message across to the dog that THEY ARE THE ONE IN CHARGE, the pinch collar helps establish a stronger re enforcement of the requests. I am not saying to just run around POPPING HIM for fun, you need to be fair and consistant with the corrections like Aussie said. A pinch collar is much more humane in my opinion then a choke chain because it does not choke them, it pinchs, you can try one out and prove to your self that these are not TORTURE DEVICES, by putting it on your arm and giving yourself a pop. Of course it is a little uncomfortable but you will see that if YOU controll the amount of correction you give they really are a very good tool. Of course given the amount of hair he has you will probably have to escalate the pop so he feel is but NO it is not cruel. You have to get firm and you have to stick with it. A soft leader does not add any asset to a dog, and also does not gain their respect. I think you can do this. Stand errect, TAKE NO CRAP use the NILIF and you are going to get him to veiw you in a whole different light
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Post by Am on Jul 9, 2006 16:44:17 GMT -5
Lord those prong collars look painful... what does a prong collar *do*? Does it work like a choke collar? I had a choke collar that I had for years, but I figured that it was cruel so I threw it out *yesterday*. Go get that choke collar out of the trash, put it around your thigh, and get someone to give it a good yank. Then go to the petstore and do the same with a well fitted pinch collar. I think you'll find that the pinch collar looks worse, but doesn't hurt as much and does a whole lot less damage. (You also might like to spray yourself in the face with the citronella while you're at it. I think you'll find that is the least pleasant option of the three collars! It really stings if it gets in your eyes. It is also pretty ineffective, in my experience - the bad citronella smell lingers even when the dog is being good, which is really confusing for the dog). Sure it does. What doesn't work for all dogs is using postive reinforcement only. Some dogs need correction as well as positive reinforcement. Alpha dogs don't scream at their pack, or get emotional or hysterical. They are calm and in control. So speak calmly to your dog, don't yell at him. If you have to tell him off for ignoring you, just calmly walk across to him and pop his collar. Then give him another chance to obey.
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Post by beardiegirl on Jul 16, 2006 11:23:22 GMT -5
hey... I'm glad to report that NILIF seems to be working REALLY WELL!! Finn responds to me when I call him, he generally obeys, he never even growls anymore! Am... I ever really thought about the citronella lingering when the dog is being good ... that really makes sense! I can't find a shop that sells prong collars, we're kind of isolated here, they don't really " do" prongs and stuff like that with their dogs here... (weird... I know). So I was thinking, would it be okay if I switched from citronella to scentless spray? We originally used that, and it worked. I haven't used the citronella collar for weeks now, since I read Am's post... I promise I'm also pleased to tell that I've started obedience/agility class for beginners with my friend (who has a Dachsund) and Finn. The trainer is *really* good... after my first class (which I actually did with Abbie because Finn's eye was all... gross... I'll explain about that *later*) I really could tell what was wrong with Finn. And it made me feel more confident about his behaviour. Before, I thought he was a bit of an embarrassment, but some of the other fully-grown dogs there were *terrible!* I'm going to be proud to present him to the teacher next class LOL. So, thanks SO MUCH for helping me guys!! --Hails XOXOXO (big hugs to EVERYBODY for making my summer more BEARABLE haha)
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Post by dragoness on Aug 1, 2006 19:02:07 GMT -5
Well, all the collar advice is nice to hear, but remember that each dog is different in what collar works for them. Some chronic pullers can seriously hurt themselves with a choke chain or prong collar, while for some dogs, they're just what the doctor ordered. And perhaps I just read too fast, but did no one suggest a headcollar, such as the Halti, Gentle Leader, or Snoot Loop? Whichever of these fits best is often a good option. It's like putting power steering on your dog, because where the nose goes, the dog goes, and you now have control of that nose. Try that if the prong collars make you cringe!
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Post by Aussienot on Aug 2, 2006 5:16:06 GMT -5
The problem is not a pulling dog, so I'm puzzled as why you think a head halter would help? She doesn't need power steering, she needs the dog to accept her leadership. If you don't understand the difference between a prong collar and a check chain, there's lots of posts here to help you. And there's a couple of posts about head collars, which can cause serious damage to the neck and spine.
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Post by dragoness on Aug 2, 2006 7:41:51 GMT -5
Well, then why all the talk about cohke chains and prong collars? The headcollars are useful foir gently enforcing commands without needing to yank a correction. The whole idea of establishing yourself as leader is to be able to enforce a command. example-- with a gentle leader, a very slight upward pull puts the dog in a sit, thus enforcing your command and reinforcing to the dog that he needs to do what you say. The loop over the nose resembles a mother's muzzle grab disciplinary action, so it is a natural way for the dog to be corrected and feel submissive.
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Post by Laura on Aug 2, 2006 18:24:05 GMT -5
The loop over the nose resembles a mother's muzzle grab disciplinary action, so it is a natural way for the dog to be corrected and feel submissive. Which is precisely why I am not a fan of ANY head controlling device, that would be akin to having your dogs snout in a " disciplinary action" all the time, thus dominating the dog constantly. Plus the propensity for injury is extremely high with the use of a head collar, I've seen too many people get lax with them, allowing the dog to forge on a leash wearing one and whipping the head around causing cervical damage.
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Post by willow on Aug 2, 2006 19:01:13 GMT -5
My feelings exactly, Laura and you beat me to the punch with your response. ;D
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