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Post by kristenmn on May 9, 2006 10:46:08 GMT -5
Hi, I'm trying to figure out how to deal with a spoiled dog situation. Here's the story: my boyfriend and I moved in with his parents and will be living with them for about a year until we get our own place. His parents have a Basset Hound that is about 4 years old and it still does not obey commands like "sit" "stay" etc. They never trained it because they didn't want to be mean to the dog. Well, now she will steal food from your plate, expects to be fed people food at the table and will refuse to do anything unless a treat is involved. She also will attack the cats if they come between her and "her people" while sitting on the couch. I find this behavior appaling because I grew up with dogs and we always had strict rules with them and they were pretty well behaved. Basically I think they are ruining their dog and it is unfair to the animal. My boyfriend agrees with me but we decided to not say anything to them about it, because we're staying in their house and want to be respectful. That doesn't mean we can't try to reinforce good behavior in the dog while we're there.
My question is whether it is possible to train a 4 year-old dog, who had never been disciplined before, to follow simple commands like "sit" and "stay". The hard part is that I think his parents will still reinforce the negative behavior, so maybe it would be pointless to try. Its just hard to sit by and do nothing. Any advice would be appreciated.
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Post by Richard on May 9, 2006 13:22:14 GMT -5
One word: NILIF
A four year old dog isn't too old to train..in fact, training should never stop; it should be a part of your everday interaction with your dog no matter how young or old.
The dog won't be a problem - she may not like the change but if her behaviour is becoming as bad as you say, then she'll just have to deal with the new world order in the house. Where you might find some problems is getting your BF's parents to buy into the program without thinking they're being "mean" to the dog. That will be up to you and the BF to convince them that having a well trained dog is more fun than a "spoiled" one that will eventually rule the house.
Get a gameplan together and try to get your BF's parents to understand that while it may seem like a lost cause to get thier dogs unruly behaviour under control, it's not. Take some time to show them that there is nothing wrong with a well trained dog who knows it's place in the pack (and it's not at the top!!) and listens when she has to.
Read the NILIF thread and check around other threads in the training section here - you'll find lots of help here too if you need it.
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Post by kristenmn on May 9, 2006 14:09:19 GMT -5
Thanks, I will check out NILIF. While she doesn't have serious behavior problems (she's not aggressive with people or other dogs) I still think the food whoring and attacking of the cats is not ok. She could be so much more loveable if I could just teach her how to sit. My BF and I will have to think of a way to talk to his parents about their child... er..um.. dog.
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Post by kaos on Jul 20, 2006 19:10:22 GMT -5
What about introducing the parents to clicker training. This could be easily combined with NILIF - ie dinner is earned piece by piece and not free any more. It would fulfill the parents desire to treat the dog whilst encouraging the dog to learn something at the same time. The dog would enjoy the training so the parents wouldn't feel 'mean'. You could measure the dogs usual dinner out and store in a pot with a clicker next to it, and hopefully the parents could resist the desire to feed the dog human food and without asking for a behaviour. If you got the dog started with a fun trick, I think this would be an easy sell? You could then move onto useful commands like 'off' (handy for the couch scenario), 'sit' 'down' 'stay' and 'come'.
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Post by Dom on Jul 29, 2006 4:09:15 GMT -5
oops. just ignore me. mispost
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Post by willow on Jul 29, 2006 12:41:40 GMT -5
Dom, I thought you were being facetious and saying the parents should be clicker trained, until I re-read your post. At any rate....Kristenmn, start NILIF on both of them, but forget the clicker. It isn't needed and is just something else someone invented to confuse dogs and owners.
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Post by kaos on Aug 1, 2006 16:38:59 GMT -5
'forget the clicker. It isn't needed and is just something else someone invented to confuse dogs and owners.'
On the contrary, the clicker a tool which can be used to effectively promote precision communication between owner and dog.
No, it isn't 'needed', there are many effective ways to train a dog, but it is a valid option that may appeal to parents who have shown no interest in traditional training. It is also a hands off approach which may increase the parents tolerance for someone else training their dog or tempt them to become involved.
Definitely not the only answer, and not for everyone, just presenting a valid option.
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Post by Dom on Aug 2, 2006 11:20:00 GMT -5
I have purchased probably 10 clickers since I got my dog. I swear them things have legs because I can never find one when I want to. I find it easier just to use the tone of my voice to "mark" wanted behavior. On a related subject, I used clicker training to train my Mom Atleast when it came down to training her dog. When my Mom moved in her (around) 6 year old Pom was part of the package. He was a little hellion. He stole food off plates, tore up the curtains, ran around like a bee on crack and worse would bite if you tried to take anything from him. Confronting my Mom on those issues was not worth the fight it would have caused and plus she would have just shut down and done nothing. One day, while she was out, I spent 4 hours off and on training her Pom to do "tricks". I knew my Mom would respond to tricks faster than "time consuming" (her words) obedience. I taught her Pom to crawl (I used "sneak"), down ("tired"), and roll onto side ("bang"). The real trick was to pretend my Mom was teaching him the commands. She got excited about "training" when she saw the Pom obeying her. Of course the Pom already knew what to do by that point but letting her believe she had "taught" him to do the tricks made her excited to teach him more.
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Post by willow on Aug 2, 2006 13:45:50 GMT -5
;D ;D Now that's really using your head! You did good! ;D I wish I could find my clicker, because my dogs are afraid of it, and I would use it as a marker for "bad" behavior and to teach them not to chase my rooster's! Next best thing to an e-collar.
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Post by Dom on Aug 2, 2006 13:56:42 GMT -5
I wish I could find my clicker, because my dogs are afraid of it, and I would use it as a marker for "bad" behavior and to teach them not to chase my rooster's! Next best thing to an e-collar. Sounds like this "sqwaker box" thingy my husband bought to keep Sadie from barking. It is suppose to make an annoying sound to stop them from barking BUT my husband has really bad timing. He would push the button to sound the noise just before Sadie would bark. Now she thinks it is some kinda reward. If he pushes the button she will take off towards the fence barking trying to find out what my husband wanted her to bark at. It has become another "training device" retired to the back shelf. ;D
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Post by willow on Aug 2, 2006 14:00:41 GMT -5
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Post by Laura on Aug 2, 2006 16:24:50 GMT -5
'forget the clicker. It isn't needed and is just something else someone invented to confuse dogs and owners.' On the contrary, the clicker a tool which can be used to effectively promote precision communication between owner and dog. No, it isn't 'needed', there are many effective ways to train a dog, but it is a valid option that may appeal to parents who have shown no interest in traditional training. It is also a hands off approach which may increase the parents tolerance for someone else training their dog or tempt them to become involved. Definitely not the only answer, and not for everyone, just presenting a valid option. There is absolutely a place for clicker training, it can be a good tool to use for obedience, no doubt about it. But what I think Willow is getting at is that this isn't obedience training, which is a lot of speaking, words and noises, but rather a behavioral issue, which is best solved by laying down the ground rules and parameters for the dog and becoming an effective leader, something that a clicker just cannot do effectively. Less talk and more body conveyance is a "language" that every dog understands .
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Post by kaos on Aug 2, 2006 17:24:14 GMT -5
Totally disagree Laura, clicker training can very quickly and effectively address exactly the behaviours that the OP mentioned as problematic eg stop begging for human food, stop hassling the cat and 'sit and stay'.
Once again - not the only option by any means, and not for everyone, but totally possible.
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Post by willow on Aug 2, 2006 17:28:18 GMT -5
Thanks, Laura...That is exactly right.
When a dog is "unbalanced" because of not having a human leader who sets rules, boundaries and limitations and has taken over the leadership and been in that role for awhile, as you said, clicker training in obedience isn't going to solve the problem. The dog needs a calm assertive human pack leader to set down firm, but fair rules.
Of course I am once again refering to what Cesar says, because he says it so much better than I do too! ;D
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Post by kaos on Aug 2, 2006 18:24:03 GMT -5
Just for the record, personally I don't believe that clicker training is in any way in conflict with being a calm assertive pack leader who sets down firm but fair rules. It is simply one possible tool for explaining to the dog what behaviour you do want from him and is appropriate. Too many people assume that clicker training equates to a soft option and a dog with no boundaries. Not so.
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