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Post by Aussienot on May 3, 2006 21:42:12 GMT -5
I have a list of 27 dog behaviors that I have to write a statement about the purpose of the behavior, and determine if it is an inherited behavior, a learned behavior or a combination of both.
I've done 26 of them without drama, but one has me stumped. Turning around several times before lying down. It's inherited, but as to the purpose all I can find is that it's a throwback to wild dogs in grass matting the grass down for comfort and to make sure there is nothing there that they don't want to lie on, like snakes.
Does anyone have a more scientific explanation, and maybe even a reputable reference I could point to? Somehow, 'I googled it ' doesn't sound scholarly enough.
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Post by Nicole on May 4, 2006 8:04:20 GMT -5
I read ages ago that dogs do this to align the spine before lying down. You will notice that dogs only do this when they are lying with the back end to the side. They don't do it when they go straight down. So it makes sense to me that they have to align the spine to lie down that way. If they needed to clear brush then I would think they would also do it when they plopped down straight. I will try to find it for you but I have exams now so my time is a bit limited. But I will look. Or else you can say Nicki from RB told me as your reference. I should mention that I did post this theory once I think on DP and was ganged up on. No one accepted this reason because everyone believes the clearing the brush theory.
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Post by willow on May 4, 2006 9:37:02 GMT -5
...and a "scientific" answer to this question is going to help in dog training how?
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Post by Nicole on May 4, 2006 16:10:41 GMT -5
Self-Service Science Forum Message ...that dogs always circle ... grass before the lie down. ... vet that it is simply to align there spine and to ... a comfort thing because my pandora.nla.gov.au/pan/10082/20010703/www2b.abc.net.au/science/k2/I found this blurb but the website is restricted. It is actually an Australian science message forum. You can browse the articles but there are a million articles and I don't know the title to this one.... Click on "about pandora" and then "home" and article topics come up and then you can try to find it. The more I think about it, I really think this theory makes sense. Sunny will circle when he lies down like he is in the avatar with the back end to the side. If I say up and then down, he will circle again and again and again so long as he is going to lie down in that type of position or in a curled position. So he will do this over and over within a short time when we practice our ups and downs. How many times does he have to clear the brush... I believe he must do this to properly align the spine to curl. As I said above, when he goes straight down, he does not circle. I also remember reading that older dogs will do this more because it takes more effort to align the spine. I would imagine large dogs do it more that small dogs. And also sometimes he only circles once...that wouldn't flatten the grass so well... and sometimes a few times probably because the spine isn't correctly aligned yet. If this theory is true, it is probably an automatic behavior...not learned, not genetic, but simply that a dog can't lie comfortably without doing it. Maybe that is genetic. What do you think about this theory? Loey.... nothing to answer your question. But it is interesting don't you think. I am a dog behavior freak. I love to know why they do what they do. ;D
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Post by Aussienot on May 4, 2006 16:28:16 GMT -5
Thanks heaps Nicole. The spine theory sounds reasonable. And Loey, you made me laugh. Good point. I suppose now if someone in a class asks me, I'll be able to sound like I know what I'm talking about.
I think the basis of the 'dog behavior' assignment is to have people really looking at and thinking about the things their dogs do. The point is to be able to determine what actions are learned, and therefore open to change through additional training; and which actions are instinctive and therefore more difficult to extinguish/modify.
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Post by willow on May 4, 2006 18:25:17 GMT -5
I have never heard the "align the spine" theory, but it's as good a theory as any other, I think. ;D
What Kara does is circle, scratch the bed/rug whatever she is lying on into a ball, and then lie down on it. She never circles before lying down outside. She only circles in the house, and only at night....never during the day. Any theories on this behavior?
Buddy never circles...he just lies down, but at night his favorite position is on his back against a wall, with his feet in the air, and I would say this is a "learned behavior", wouldn't you? And it's so cute, I wouldn't dream of trying to train it out of him! ;D
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Post by Nicole on May 5, 2006 7:51:01 GMT -5
That is interesting that you brought up the scratching. Sunny does this too very rarely and when he is very tired and only in two spots in the house...his room and a carpet in front of the back doors..both places that he sleeps. And he also circles when he does this over and over. It is circle circle scratch scratch scratch, circle circle... over and over like a ceremony. I think that this behavior is nesting. The scratching may be to scare the snakes away and the circling to make the spot clear and comfy. I would say this behavior is instinctive. So the answer may be that yes it can be nesting but dog's also do the circling to align the spine. That sounds scientific!! And Loey, Sunny lies like Buddy too... ;D ;D It is adorable. It is his favorite position. I think that it is comfortable for them. I would say that is learned. Once they do it they like it.
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Post by willow on May 5, 2006 8:37:30 GMT -5
Awwwwwww....cute picture! That's Buddy, but he also sleeps with his whole body on his back and his front legs folded back to his chest, and his favorite place to sleep like this is in the upstairs hall outside my bedroom. I also see I am not the only one with blankets/rugs in front of my couch! ;D That is Kara's favorite place to lie, and I try to protect the braided rug I have there. Going back to the instinctive or learned (Aussie, don't get mad....I'm just having fun with this. You know me! I like to try to analyze studies etc., and isn't anything personal) ;D When, and does a learned behavior ever turn instinctive? Like the way Sunny and Buddy lie....lots of dogs do that, but not all do. Kara never lies like that, so because some dogs do it and some don't, does this mean it is instinctive in all dogs, or a learned behavior that has been passed down from generation to generation in only some lineages? Aussie I re-read your original post and you only speak of "inherited" and "learned" behavior. Does that mean that "inherited" is the same as "instinctive" in the sence you are talking about, because an "inherited" behavior does not necessarily mean it is "instinctive", right? Instinctive means it has been "programmed" into the genes from day 1, whereas "inherited" could/would be a learned behavior, passed down through generations. Everyone confused yet? ;D
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Post by Nicole on May 5, 2006 14:28:39 GMT -5
Here is another thought. Circling starts out as instinctive nesting behavior and from that the dog learns that circling makes it easier and more comfortable to lie down. So the circling when not nesting is a learned behavior from an instinctive behavior. Some dogs don’t learn this because they have no need to align the spine or because they don’t nest. I think many behaviors can be deemed learned in part from an initial instinctive behavior. A dog barks at someone instinctively out of territoriality and then learns that the barking makes the person go away. Next time he barks at a person not in a territorial situation to make the person go away...that would be the learned component. A dog digs instinctively to get cool or to bury a bone or to catch a mole. He learns that this is fun. Next time he does it not for the instinctive reasons but for fun. So I think that one behavior can have a dual component of both instinctive and learned. And if you can determine what part is learned, that part may be easier to extinguish. Instinctive behaviors are very tough to extinguish. In answer to your question Loey, I don't think that a learned behavior becomes instinctive but rather the other way around. An instinctive behavior can throw off learned behaviors. They do something instinctively and learn that it causes other outcomes that they like which then becomes self reinforcing and learned. I don't think that a learned behavior is inherited the way I think of the word inherited. I equate inherited to genetics. You can copy the mom and learn the behavior but it isn't in the genes because lets say you can't learn then you can't get that "inherited" behavior. Although some behaviors are inherited, musical talent etc but you need to still learn it. Now I am getting way out of my element... One more thing, Sunny starts out like you describe Buddy but then his front end plops to the side. Ok, now I HAVE to get back to studying contractual remedies.....
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Post by willow on May 6, 2006 10:17:17 GMT -5
Nicki, I agree that "inherited" refers to genetics, but what I am asking is if "inherited" and "instinctual" are one and the same, because a dog can "inherit" some thing from its parents, but that doesn't mean it began as an instinctual behavior...do you understand what I mean? With health issues it's easy....yes, a dog can inherit the tendency for, say...bad hips from the parents. I think we all know and agree with that, but is it that clear cut with behavior issues? With aggression issues, for example, I think it could be instinctual, inherited and learned, because by instinct a dog is naturally say, territorial, then by breeding dogs with a strong trait towards this, and some of the puppies also display this trait, it can then be said it has been inherited. But! what happens next depends on the owner's, I think, and if they encourage the behavior or not, and just doing nothing when the dog displays territorial behavior is encouraging it, therefore it then becomes a learned response. Well, one object of these questions is to make a person think, and often think outside the box, but it can also make you feel like you are chasing your tail, which is a futile behavior, to be sure...but is it an inherited, instinctual or learned behavior? That is the question!
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Post by Nicole on May 6, 2006 10:46:43 GMT -5
Ok, I get what your asking now and I can say positively that I don’t know. Initially, I thought of instinctual as an automatic response like when you withdraw your hand from a stove. But that is incorrect. I think the hand/stove example is like a heart beat. You have no choice. I see what you are saying about instincts being inherited whereas initially I did not think that an automatic response would be. I thought everyone gets those genes no matter what. But you are right. ;D I think that certain instincts are inherited as you point out so well in the territorial example. Some dogs have it and some don’t. So I think that a dog can inherit instinctual behavior although I don't think that "inherited" and "instinctual" are interchangeable because you can inherit non instinctual things...health, color, size etc.
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Post by willow on May 6, 2006 13:40:23 GMT -5
O.k....now that we are on the same page....should we list examples of what we believe to be all 3 behaviors? Then again, since Aussie is probably ready to throttle me and has vowed to never ask a simple question here again maybe we better just drop it. (It was fun though, and may be an indication that I need to get a life).
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Post by Aussienot on May 7, 2006 18:14:28 GMT -5
My bad wording, the word should have been 'instinctive' versus learned. Inherited is slightly different. All instinct is inherited. Finn inherited cute ears and the ability to bite. It's instinct that moves him to use the bite. It's a learned behavior that inhibits the bite. And it's a learned behavior to cock his head and show off the cute ears to distract me from whatever he has just bitten.
Just to make it difficult, we can answer that a behavior is a combination of instinctive and learned.
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Post by willow on May 8, 2006 9:36:28 GMT -5
Thanks, Aussie....that is what what confusing me.
But now I have another question: Wouldn't the ability to bite be instinctive and not inherited, because all dogs instinctively know how to bite from day one...going back to the "Programed in the genes" things. Like you said, bite inhibition or how hard the dog bites, otoh, is a learned behavior.
The cute ears would definitely be an inherited physical characteristic, and Finn learning how to use them to his advantage, would be a learned behavior.
**I think it is safe to say then, that instinctive always refers to, and can only mean, behaviors the animal displays, inherited can be either physical, or behavioral characteristics of that particular dog which have been inherited from his ancestors, and learned is just that. A behavior the dog has learned on his own, or been taught to do.**
And that is my scientific explanation, based on what I have learned from mine and other dogs, but as to if a behavior is instinctive or learned or a combination of both is another question we would have to consider according to each behavior displayed.
As to the turning around before lying down then, we would have to know exactly why dogs do it before we can determine if it is instinctive or learned or a combo.
If it is to align the spine, then it would be an instinctive behavior.
If it is to stomp the grass down, then I think it would be a learned/inherited behavior, unless the behavior is actually instinctive to stomp the grass.......and that is what we don't know.
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Post by sibemom on May 9, 2006 8:35:29 GMT -5
This is good reading guys Lots of pondering to do on this one I should try and get a picture of Brody sleeping on his blanket. He does'nt sleep on his back but he always has his head on some sort of pillow, mostly a peice of Matt's clothes that he stole from the hamper He has to have a peice of Matt's clothes with him every night to lay his head on He snuggles his face right into it, usually a shirt SOCKS DO NOT MAKE A GOOD PILLOW and almost sucks it into his nose and then he SNORES DOGS Why do they circle before they lay down BECAUSE THEY CAN
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