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Post by Aussienot on Jan 18, 2006 4:02:04 GMT -5
A real life hypothetical for discussion.
I saw this post on a discussion group for new Delta Canine Good Citizen instructors. After 24 hours, no one has touched it. I though it might be a good subject to explore here. The issues and problems are almost too many to mention.
Here's the post:
Where to start? The loss of the mother means the puppies need to be taught bite inhibition, and dog socialisation will be difficult because the puppies have no idea how dogs should interact. Two litter sibblings and the problems that can create. Two high energy dogs paired with two children. And I have no idea of the health issues with puppies weaned too soon and formula raised.
Ok, experts, have a go at this one . . . .
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Post by willow on Jan 18, 2006 13:24:27 GMT -5
I'm not sure that I qualify as an "expert" in this department, but here's what I would do if I found myself in this situation. I would do exactly what I do with all the puppies/dogs that come into my household, no matter what age they are or what their background is, because all I can control is what happens to them now, not what happened to them in their past life. Right from the beginning I would have the rule that absolutely no aggression be shown to each other or to any other animal/human. It cannot be tolerated, or eventually one or both of them would have to go. I would also make sure the children respect the puppies rights and not let them harass/tease them in anyway....no eye poking, tail pulling, or bothering them while they are eating etc. As to socializing with other puppies/dogs, I am definitely not qualified to answer that one.
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Post by Summer Magic on Jan 18, 2006 15:05:21 GMT -5
I am by no means an expert but is there a way she could find a surrogate mother for the socialization of the pups. A mother who has pups about the same age as these? Could she or most important would she train them along with her own? My sheltie had the same circumstance so I'm interested in the answers coming from most of you who have dealt with this problem.
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Post by Brooke on Jan 18, 2006 19:52:59 GMT -5
I was thinking along the terms of a surrogate mother/litter as well to get these guys with. On the other hand we got Kuma and two of her litter mates at 4 weeks old. Well... one (Yuri...the nephew) was from a separate litter who was born a week prior. A mother and daughter dog both became pregnant at the same time. They were not contained at any point or time. Free to roam as they pleased. Living on a plot of land right next to a highway and busy road, not to mention other houses not all that far. The rest of the litter (there were 13 puppies total between both litters) had died or been killed by drowning in the river or eaten by other animals. We walked around the property and found pieces of their bones laying around The family "taking care" of them just left them to live under their trailer on a plot of land and mother dogs were always off running the property... everyone elses property (which is how they got pregnant.) They didn't want the pups around anymore and didn't care what happened to them. Nothing was obviously protecting them. The vet told us if we had not gotten Kuma when we did she would have died from her worm infestation within two days. She was thin and lathargic. Very timid and unsocial. We raised the three of them together for the first 6 months and they all turned out with great temperaments. The only behavioral problems were because of lack of consistancy from the roommates that took the other two but the temperaments were fine. They played and taught eachother bite inhabition pretty well. I think that's mostly where it comes from anyway...the littermates... during play. Honestly I think the fact that they were together so long is why Kuma became such a soft dog. I'm not disappointed with how she turned out at all. I stood in a lot and corrected where the mother dog normally would. We socialized them all a lot. I took them all places a lot. I was pretty strict with Kuma from the beginning. I think those two pups you posted about could definately use a little more interaction than just eachother for bite inhabition experience. Not sure two will be enough interaction alone but I don't know that it's absolutely critical for a large litter and mother as long as they are raised firmly and directed well. It amazes me that they would put down a mother dog and leave the pups at such a young age. What genius decided that? I would hold off on real training. Meaning outside potty training until at least 8 weeks but make sure you are correcting for any teething or biting on skin...directing to toys instead. Those things are ok. From about 8 to 10 weeks I'd then probably start NILIF in small doses. i.e. working/waiting for meals...small things like sitting. Nothing major. If they don't get responses feel free to send me the site. I'll be happy to gab about it. Or send her here if you think you can get away with it. ;D
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Post by Laura on Jan 19, 2006 2:10:25 GMT -5
Ditto to finding a surrogate, at three weeks old, they aren't even weaned yet and Momma would have still been cleaning their bottoms. I have had the pleasure (snort : of having four pups that age in my house (mother was hit by a car on the west side hghwy), and it was an all day affair. Bottle feeding with PMR every three hours, cleaning little fuzzy butts off, and when the last one was finished, starting all over again. Once the final bottle week was over, I put them in with Riley (another foster who had a litter) and she took them on as her own, and believe me, while we can teach them a lot, it really does make a difference to have another dog teach bite inhibition. The toughest age is actually around 5 weeks, that's when the personalities come out and you find out who the bully of the litter is. This is when I start to separate them for feeding times, and get them some alone time so they don't become totally dependant on each other. And lots and lots of human handling, there's no substitute for that, ever.
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Post by sibemom on Jan 19, 2006 12:05:44 GMT -5
I have had a little experience with this and yes the surrogate mother is a good idea, but actually if you don't have one you can still get them to grow up just fine. When I got my Lab Sadie she was an orphaned pup, and almost 4 weeks old. I did have another very good older dog in my home at the time but it was a MALE He was a mix of Lab, GSD, and WHO KNOWS he pretty much took her under his care and between what the boys and I did with her, like what Willow suggested she turned out just fine. I also had a litter that was brought to me at 3 weeks old, because like with Laura's situation the mother was hit by a car. By this time Sadie was almost 1 year old and she too assisted with mothering these pups. It's alot of work because of the feeding issues etc... and yes it does help to have another adult dog Male or female to kinda of teach them dog manners but again I think they would of been fine without that. I think the key to doing without the benefit of a surrogate is not to humanize the pups to soon, like not untill they are at least 4 1/2 to 5 weeks old, and by that I don't mean not to handle them or play with them but more like allowing them to be dogs for that time just like mom would do. Once they get out of that stage then of course I would really implement the rules at a slow pace. Willow was just short of 7 weeks when I brought her home and I thank Loey for impressing on me the importance of taking them on their 49th day of life. IT DOES make a difference in how they bond with you. Sadie was always a bit of a CLING ON because she was with us at such an early age, but I will say she was a WONDERFUL DOG, and I don't think at least behavior wise she suffered from not having her mother. Just my toughts
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Post by willow on Jan 19, 2006 17:39:15 GMT -5
As I said, I am no expert on this, but I am wondering since the pups are already 9 wks old if a surrogate mother would benefit them that much? By 9 wks most pups are weaned and at their new homes, or should be. I know the "experts" are now saying a pup should be at least 8 weeks before leaving mom and siblings, and some "experts" even think they should be with mom and sibs until 12 weeks, but I just don't go along with that. However, since the pups are now 9 wks, and I assume weaned, if they were put with a nursing female would she even accept them, or would they be treated as puppies from a strange pack? It doesn't sound like these people have any other dogs in the hh, but if they have friends with older dogs who would be good with the pups, then I would say it might do them some good to socialize them with the older dogs so they can learn they are dogs, but as Sibemom said, I think even puppies who are not raised by their mother know they are dogs if they are treated like dogs and not treated like orphaned children.
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Post by Brooke on Jan 19, 2006 18:36:10 GMT -5
yeah now that I think about it... when molly had her pups (the litter that I helped deliever for the dog my mom's fiance adopted) I remember how small they still were at three weeks. Of course they were a lot smaller of a breed being spaniel mixes.
I never really thought about it till now. Kuma seemed a lot bigger at 4 weeks than I think they seemed at that point. The family who gave them up to us may have told us wrong but it's possible they were a late 4 week to 5 weeks...
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