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Post by yvonnedono on Mar 17, 2005 9:53:11 GMT -5
We have two six month old male sibling puppies - sharpe/lab mixes.
We live in the country - with no fences - and nothing but hundreds of acres of woods around us on three sides and a road on the other. So, they need to know and respond to "come".
At this point they "know" what to do when they hear "come" - but they just do not do it consistently. Especially when they are together. This morning they took off really fast and we lost site of them - luckily they came back after about ten minutes.
They went to puppy training - so what's next. I fear part of the problem is that we started rewarding them even when it took long for them to return - because we wanted them to at least eventually come back (although at first we did not - we reprimanded them if they took too long). So, we feel as if we have to try something more drastic to get them to come. Their lives can depend on it - there are many dangerous predators in the woods that surround our home.
That brings me to the electric collar. Can anyone with experience give us tips on how to use it? Particularly with the come command. Like, at what point to "zap" them? Also, has anyone had luck?
We also have two other problems. Constant fighting (of course, I think they think it is playing - but it seems aggressive to us and we want it to stop), eating every branch, etc., in site; and constantly wanting each other's toys. Can the e-color help with any of these situations as well?
thanx for any and all input. We love our little pups and want to get them trained all the way for their safety and our sanity!
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Post by Laura on Mar 17, 2005 12:50:38 GMT -5
When you say they've had puppy training, what exactly did that entail? How many minutes a day do you spend now working with the pups? Have you worked the recall with them on a long line? These are things that must be done before you jump into an e-collar.
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Post by yvonnedono on Mar 17, 2005 15:33:41 GMT -5
Hi. Thanx for your reply. We took a course and spent at least 10-15 minutes a day doing the homework assignments. We also incorporated all training techniques in day to day activities. We were pretty thorough. They seem to understand what they want to do - they just would rather not do it.
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Post by Laura on Mar 19, 2005 2:16:40 GMT -5
Ahhaa, this says a whole lot ;D! Dogs have to be conditioned, and that take MONTHS of daily training to get them conditioned well enough so that they think that coming back to you is the best thing out there. Did you continue to work them (separately) every day? Did you graduate to a long line? Did you start to add distractions first, and then proof then in new environments? That's the kind of groundwork that must be done in order to get a solid recall, the e-collar will just solidify the training. You can shape the recall with an e-collar, but if you've never used one, I do recommend you consult with a trainer who has used one, it's so very easy to ruin a great dog with one. That being said, the next step is to research e-collars, I personally use a Dogtra myself, be sure to get the best you can afford. Cheap units can and will malfunction, rust, leave marks, and have too few levels of stim. Most trainers use either Dogtra, Innotek, or TriTronics. Once you've gotten a collar, place it on the dog and LEAVE it on the dog for several days, without turning it on. This is to get the dog accustomed to wearing it, and so they don't become "collar smart" . After several days of wearing it, then you can start to find the dog's working stim level and work the recall, and I can't think of a better place to send you to do some reading than Lou Castle's site . www.loucastle.com/recall.htmLou is one of the best e-trainers out there, and a hell of a nice guy to boot!
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Post by Aussienot on Mar 19, 2005 2:50:34 GMT -5
I have some experience with e-collars and the e-collar is not the answer for you in this situation. It is not a quick zap-your-dog fix. It is not an electric leash. And you can seriously unhinge your dogs if you do it wrong. Using an e-collar is a METHOD of training. An e-collar requires a basic understanding of how dogs think, a ton of handler training and a lot of work.
Save your money and put the work into basic adult dog training. Don't let the dogs have off leash freedom until you have a reliable recall on leash.
How did you expect your dogs to know that you were reprimanding the lack speed, and are you sure you taught them to a level of off leash reliability that recalls must be instant?
The come is ALWAYS good. Never reprimand your dogs for comming, even if it takes an ice age. If you punish your dog- even once -for coming, you need to train the come again with a different command, like here or call.
My advice is to find a good professional trainer and work with them. Your aggression problems stem from having two male puppies. This will only get worse until you get some control over both of them.
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Post by Brooke on Mar 19, 2005 10:58:13 GMT -5
There are very few 6month old pups with solid recalls... recall is probably the hardest thing to proof in the world of dog training but there are phases you need to go through.
I honestly feel you need to continue investing the training and bonding with your dog for at least a few more months before you jump into the e-collar.
Don't get me wrong... they are great. I use e-collars but personally I think we are jumpin the gun a bit for as young as they are. I'm a bit leary advising someone with no experience using that type of collar into strapping it on to two six month pups... As Laura said while they can be great tools for fast learning you can also do a lot of damage in even less time.
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Post by yvonnedono on Mar 22, 2005 10:09:07 GMT -5
Well, thanx for all of your feedback. So, its back to the starting board. Put them back on leash and retrain? Are you positive that we can't keep using COME command?
:-*When we have them on leash or in a small area they come back and forth like clock work. The problem is once they get off, we say COME, they ignore us, and we have no way to reinforce it cause they are not within reach. How does one respond to that without negative response from us once we get back into touch with them? Thats why we thought the e-collar would be good - remote access.
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Post by DivineOblivion19 on Mar 22, 2005 11:56:54 GMT -5
I use an e-collar on my Boston to get her to come. But my situation is slightly different, my dog is deaf! Her recall is excellent, when she knows I'm signing to her. All I do it give her a little stimulation with the collar and she looks for me for her command. I use the lap dog collar. Most vibrating collars are huge and my dog is only 12 pounds! So I got an e-collar with very low stim. It feels more like it's tickling instead of zapping.
Anyway, I don't think you need the e-collar. The others can give you better advice than I can. But, if you do decide to use it you need to find someone who can help you train with it. My OB/agility instructor teaches e-collar training and she's the one who helped me.
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Post by Laura on Mar 22, 2005 13:41:45 GMT -5
Dog training has three components, teaching, proofing, then correcting. You're trying to correct before proofing, so that's when you take a step back. You need to start proofing the dogs, and that basically means to almost reteach them the command in a new setting, so that they learn that "COME" means the same thing no matter where you are. Proofing also means to add distractions in the learning environment. Bets way to accomplish this is to go back to a long line. I personally use a super light piece of nylon, light enough that the dog does not realize that they're attatched to it, about 30 ft. long. Let the dog get to the end of the line, recall, and that way if he does not respond, you have a way to give a mild correction and get his attention. You also have to go back to big rewards for coming back to you, EVERY time. It's conditioning, and you might have ruined the condition if you reprimanded them for coming back to you. You may have to change the command to "here" or something similar, and start from scratch.
Just out of curiousity, where did you take the dogs for training, and what methods did they use?
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Post by yvonnedono on Mar 22, 2005 14:32:25 GMT -5
I got my training through a pet store - and it really wasn't all that good - compared to other pet training I've been through.
We have, unfortunately, used the COME command when trying to reprimand them - out of frustration. Now, we've noticed that "Lets Go" or "Good Boy" tend to have a positive affect on them. Maybe we should switch to one of those.
They are smart pups - in a way, part of the problem. For example, we've gotten one of them to ring a cow bell when he wants to go outside.
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Post by yvonnedono on Mar 22, 2005 14:35:10 GMT -5
An update - this weekend they left and didn't come back for a couple hours. Also, while walking them separately, one of them will take off, and come back five minutes later and find us (we have paths that go through our property - which we stay on when walking them). We don't reprimand them after they've been gone because we want their return to be happy......
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Post by ChicaAntigua on Mar 23, 2005 21:44:58 GMT -5
Now, we've noticed that "Lets Go" or "Good Boy" tend to have a positive affect on them. Maybe we should switch to one of those. Nope, I wouldn't use either of those words for the recall, because one means "Let's go", not "come" and "good boy" is used to praise when they do what you want, not to come to you. What's wrong with "Here"? I use that on my dogs and they respond to it very well. Make sure you always say their name first to get their attention, and then say "here".
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Post by SassyandZeusMom on Mar 24, 2005 16:18:08 GMT -5
Just a quick question, are you trying to train them togther? If so, start training each one seprately..
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Post by yvonnedono on Mar 24, 2005 16:45:20 GMT -5
We train them separately - even took them to separate classes. But, eventually, they need to respond when they are together - especially to the Here command outside.
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Post by yvonnedono on Mar 24, 2005 16:51:52 GMT -5
Ya know, I'm realizing that we never used a long line. We just trained them inside and then took them outside. So, how does the long line work? Wait until they are as far as the line can go - then COME. Then do what if they don't come? Yank on the line? Pull them in? Looks like we missed a basic part of the component.
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