Levi
puppy
Posts: 15
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Post by Levi on Feb 21, 2004 23:05:08 GMT -5
I have absolutely no idea who I was directly critical of, as that was not an intent or something I was trying to achieve.
If asking questions or "voicing" thoughts in a questioning manner is taken as being critical on this forum I cannot help that.
I don't understand the defensive manner in which people jump to when their methods are questioned or asked of. A discussion would be more fitting than uncontrollable jeering IMO - especially if everyone is looking out for the best interest for animals.
If ideas and actions cannot be discussed, how can anyone learn, or broaden their horizons?
I work with animals on a daily basis.
Very rarely do I put time into the "adoptable" shelter animals, however, while working at the facility. The ones I do invest time into come to my home. I work long term with most of those chosen, and while the "average" pet potential may not be immediately seen, it is there. For those animals, I fight tooth and nail for their very survival.
The Sue comparison that one made here - it's almost so sad it's funny. I work at a facility that almost echos her very nature, and though I am the euthanasia tech I'm one of the ONLY ones that dedicates effort to animals that arrive.
I was hoping to find in this forum, a place to discuss needs, training efforts and correction techniques.
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Post by Richard on Feb 22, 2004 2:03:26 GMT -5
Ok,
One more time...if you had come to this site, read our posts and said something like: "wow, you guys are responsible pet owners and really care about your dogs. That is so nice to see - especially with what I have to see happen at my work everyday. I see you all get great results with the prong, that is great too, but are you aware of the other side, the dangers of wearing it all the time........."
Instead, we see this: "....If one feels that they must constantly use a training device as a part of the animals life I'm not sure where the breakdown is - if the dog isn't trained, if the owner isn't confident in the dog - or if there are other issues...."
So, you tell me, do you not think one would be insulted with the way you came across. That isn't questioning anything or trying to learn anything....does this make it a bit more clear as to why we were a bit upset?
My dog is my pride and joy and if you didn't realize that from my posts, then you've been working on the wrong side of the tracks for too long...when someone takes pride in something, they take things a little more personally than usual.
-Richard
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Post by Nicole on Feb 22, 2004 9:05:49 GMT -5
Exactly Richard. It is the art of communication.
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Post by Willow on Feb 22, 2004 10:01:37 GMT -5
The Sue comparison that one made here - it's almost so sad it's funny. I work at a facility that almost echos her very nature, and though I am the euthanasia tech I'm one of the ONLY ones that dedicates effort to animals that arrive. I was hoping to find in this forum, a place to discuss needs, training efforts and correction techniques. That would be me, who made the SS comparison and I stand behind what I said. You gave us an unfair *temp. test* and judged us as being mean spirited. Although my comment was made to try to lighten things up a bit, perhaps it was an error in judgement on my part. Levi, as Richard said, you did not merely ask a question about the pinch collar. Your reference to a 3yr old dog still wearing a pinch collar was taken, and rightly so, as a direct criticism towards him and his training or communication (to his dog) abilities. For someone who came here to discuss *needs, training efforts and correction techniques*, as you said you did, where have we seen that side of you? Your question was none of the above, it was a direct criticism of the above, whether you understand that or not. By your failing to see where your comment was a criticism, intended or not, I wonder if you did come here to discuss, or to tell us where we are wrong?
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Post by amyjo on Feb 22, 2004 12:36:42 GMT -5
Levi -
You received multiple well thought out answers to your question. The only "jeering" I saw was a light hearted response to being "evaluated".
I think questioning methods is cool - it is how we learn. We learn by questioning and we also learn when we examine our own methods and explain them to others.
I don't think based on your response to our explainations that you were willing to accept them - clearly you did not want to understand but rather change our minds. But hey..that's just me.
Specifically to answer your question about the 130 lb mastiff you are now sharing your home with - Yes, it is possible that he doesn't need the choke his owners used. I would remove it for safety reasons.
Because this dog is so big - I would replace it with a prong collar and a tab - but that is just me. The reason I would do this is because THAT DOG CAN KILL YOU IF HE WANTS TO. I am not saying he will or that he is mentally capable I am mearly speaking to big muscles and big teeth. And in all honesty the hole in my arm is talking here too...
But I would leave the prong and the tab on the dog whenever he is with you for 60 days. In that time if he requires no corrections in the house stop using it in the house. If at anytime you have to correct him in the house then start your 60 day count over.
If you only use it on walks and I hope you would - then put it on an hour or so before you go out and take it off a short time after you return ( this will prevent him from being 'collar smart'.)
This is only what I would do - and this speaks only to corrections that are sometimes necessary for offenses. I am not touching on other training methods for the purposes of this post - but I think you might have the misconception that as a group we are all about the prong - but it is just one facet of a holisitc approach all of us here tend to follow. Some of us do it a little differently but we are all loosley following the same methods of NILIF, corrections that match the dogs temperment, and positive rewards. Hope this helps.
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Post by sibemom on Feb 22, 2004 17:59:15 GMT -5
Levi, Wouldnt it be fair to say that maybe the prong collar did not work out for you or a few people that you know and that is why you have the feelings about it that you do? I am not trying to fuel this but let me tell you something. Each and every person on this board is dedicated to doing the BEST method of training for their dogs. When it was mentioned about SS I could understand why. That is another subject about someone being very closed minded about their methods and poo pooing the way others have chosen to TT dogs. I am not trying to bash you or your methods HEY if it works for you great but what the majority of us are doing here is working also and we like to BRAIN STORM with each other so we can gain more knowledge and pick up pointers along the way. I think you have something to offer here even if it is not what we are doing to train your opinions are still taken under advisement. So don't think we are a bunch of radicals out there popping our dogs with prong collars just for fun. We are GOOD handlers doing what is needed to train our dogs and keep them in controll so our lives together are enjoyable. Thanks for listening.
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Levi
puppy
Posts: 15
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Post by Levi on Feb 26, 2004 0:54:54 GMT -5
Specifically to answer your question about the 130 lb mastiff you are now sharing your home with - Yes, it is possible that he doesn't need the choke his owners used. I would remove it for safety reasons. Because this dog is so big - I would replace it with a prong collar and a tab - but that is just me. The reason I would do this is because THAT DOG CAN KILL YOU IF HE WANTS TO. I am not saying he will or that he is mentally capable I am mearly speaking to big muscles and big teeth. And in all honesty the hole in my arm is talking here too... But I would leave the prong and the tab on the dog whenever he is with you for 60 days. In that time if he requires no corrections in the house stop using it in the house. If at anytime you have to correct him in the house then start your 60 day count over. If you only use it on walks and I hope you would - then put it on an hour or so before you go out and take it off a short time after you return ( this will prevent him from being 'collar smart'.) The dog I have is pretty good but he does need some work that will take time. He's 149 lbs and I weigh in at 98 lbs. We are quite a pair! While he isn't one of the largest dogs I've worked with he is one of the most massive ones. Tomorrow we'll see a behaviorist and go from there. I do think this boy will become a great companion - for the right person. He doesn't have a lot of "issues", just a general lack of training enforcement. With luck he will be able to be worked with before he is sent to breed rescue or adopted out from the vets office. His size and lack of manners has been a cause for some very interesting moments, though! I can sympathyze with your arm... Perhaps, when I get resources again to post photos, I'll show some before/after photos of some of my boo-boos caused by dogs in the past. My face may be alarming to some, though. I still need work on repairing one of my ears.
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Post by Richard on Feb 26, 2004 7:46:27 GMT -5
PP on a 149lb mastiff with no training, bad manners and whatever other problems he has....good luck.
I think you are trying to make the dog fit the training method instead of the other way around....read amyjos advice again...especially the part that says " THAT DOG CAN KILL YOU" ....it sounds like he may need more than just a trip to a behaviourist...
If you expected us to give any other sort of advice, I'm sorry, this dog is big, tough and is a challenge even to someone who believes in prongs and NILIF training 24/7. Our support is there, but you have to be willing to listen - you came for information - you're getting some of the best around. I can appreciate and respect your approach that this can work out, but c'mon, you're dealing with a 149lb dog that someone else screwed up cuz they didn't care...you need to be realistic about how you will show this dog you mean business. -Richard
ps - If you think we're tough, go to Leerburgs forum and put up what is going on with you and the mastiff...
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Levi
puppy
Posts: 15
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Post by Levi on Feb 26, 2004 13:33:17 GMT -5
PP on a 149lb mastiff with no training, bad manners and whatever other problems he has....good luck. I think you are trying to make the dog fit the training method instead of the other way around.... I think you're jumping the gun with opinions on the dog. I haven't touched on any specifics about him, yet you wish me luck (as if I've taken on an impossible task) and you assume I've decided on a training method for him. I don't understand this. Where did it come from? Is it because he is large and I'm somewhat small? Do you think that one of the first steps with him (seeking out a behaviorist) is a bad step? Why? He was in the shelter for a minimal ammount of time because there is no space available for him - and because of breed discrimination from some of the staff. Once pulled, he was vetted, and neutered. At this point we'll be seeing a behaviorist to determine the best route with him - BEFORE any training decisions are made. I don't choose animals to foster lightly - there are too many to work with around here to make an unwise decision. You seem to jump on the thought that he "could kill you" without asking anything about him, learning anything about him or knowing any more than very basic information. Why does he seem to be deemed a horrible monster already? I'm very familiar with that forum. However, why would I want to register with a forum that wants my name, home address and phone number? Hello!
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Post by amyjo on Feb 26, 2004 15:00:16 GMT -5
oh Levi -
Nobody thinks he is a monster. We mearly want you to take precautions because he is bigger than you and in all honesty you can't know him that well yet.
If you want to see a behaviorist first fine - but if it were me I would have started a training program the minute he stepped into my house.
Also, I would like to touch on something that you mentioned in your original post on your board and that is the "shaker cans" you keep around your house. There are alot of people (including me) who think that purposely scaring the dog into obedience and allowing him to see you do it can damage your realationship with the dog. A collar correction is a lot more meaningful and fits into a framework the dog easily understands.
Finally- if having your face messed up doesn't make you want to err on the side of caution - then nothing I have to say is going to make a difference - so I am pretty much done with this thread..Good luck whatever you decide is best and thanks for doing the hard work of rescue.
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Post by Brooke on Feb 26, 2004 17:02:27 GMT -5
Ok folks...
The administration has been discussing this together and we are feeling like its about time to just agree to disagree. This thread isn't really going anywhere. It has moved past it's point of an introduction and probably should have been closed at that point given the content.
It's time my friends for us all to just move on from this.
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