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Post by Aussienot on May 8, 2004 1:15:46 GMT -5
Ok, mostly posting here so that I'll stop spending money. I had a bit of crisis of faith this week, over making my dog into something he's not.
Finn spent most of Monday night agility in the Sin Bin (my car) for willful failure to focus on the task at hand. Three times I took him off the field in disgrace. My instructor thought I was being too hard on him, but there is some behavior I won't accept.
Towards the end of the night, the other trainers took their dogs to the edge of the field, and Finn posted a qualifying time in the same layout of the Jumper's Course that was used in the National Agility Trials. His sudden great performance did not cheer me up, did not redeem his earlier behavior and only added to my growing angst.
While we were putting the equipment away, an overbearing woman who is highly placed in the dog world put an hand on my shoulder, and said "if you're serious about competing, get a Working Dog." At first I was greatly offended because she was totally dissin' my dog.
But on the drive home I thought about it a lot. Finn does not obsessively focus on anything, except in the chase of small furry animals. He does not have an compulsive need to perform a job. He's got the athletic ability, he's got the trainability, he's got drive and strong nerves, he loves performing, but he doesn't have a 'Work Ethic'.
And I don't know how to give it to him. No amount of drilling, training toys or videos on handling techniques will ever make him into a faux Border Collie. If I could just train a really fast ferret to run around the course ahead of him . . . . .nah, would never clear the jumps . . . . I realised the reason why you don't see Ridgebacks or Bull Terriers in competition.
I've gotten over it. We'll keep trying, because at the end of the night he's the dog I'm taking home. And to be fair, he's better at agility than I am and he's not the one who wants to compete.
And I got a really cool thing called a 'Tug and Treat' from Clean Run that I'm using to motivate him. It's kind of like a bait bag, but the dog can't get into it. I folllowed the instructions that came with it to build desire, and for a dog that doesn't like toys, it is a godsend. It totally winds him up to grab it and tug and fight.
So I bought him a second one, and a double spread jump, a couple of squeaky squirel toys, and another Greg Derrett training video for me . . . . . . maybe if we just work a little harder . . . .
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Post by Richard on May 8, 2004 6:28:26 GMT -5
Hey Aussie, Just a few thoughts....I don't think you've done (or did) anything wrong that night. I think what you did have was a "checkpoint" chat with yourself over what happened. While we were putting the equipment away, an overbearing woman who is highly placed in the dog world put an hand on my shoulder, and said "if you're serious about competing, get a Working Dog." At first I was greatly offended because she was totally dissin' my dog. This overbearing woman say anything nice about you and Finn? Or did she just seem to go out of her way to make you feel like crap? You know there are people like that all over this world and if she'd come across in some other fashion, perhaps with some understanding and acknowledgment of your accomplishments to date, you would of felt less inclined to belt her one in the kisser!! And I am glad to see that...you're not the type of person who wastes time...if you and Finn want to do this, then do it....if he's not the perfect "Working Dog" in that lady's opinion is that gonna really matter in 10, 30 or 100 years?? Honestly, if people like that one who approached you that night (the expert) ever took a minute and remembered what it was like starting out or the simple fact that some days the dog and handler don't work well together, perhaps she'd taken a different tone of attitude with you. I'm glad you shook it off...as long as you and Finn are having fun (I mean that is the reason we do stuff like this right?) then keep going...you'll prove that lady wrong and that the combination of a talented dog and an even more talented handler can do almost anything....and if Finn or you have a bad night....forgedabou-it!! You very rarely have 2 bad weeks in a row!! My money is on you guys!! -Richard
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Post by Laura on May 8, 2004 21:57:50 GMT -5
Absolutely, Richard's right, this should be a fun thing for both you and Finn, not something to keep you up at night . And think about it for a moment, who went off the field in disgrace? Not your boy, he don't know from disgrace ;D. Nobody got hurt, maimed, spindled or folded in the process, so toss that right out of your head! No, Finn will never be a BC, and he might never have the drive like one, but considering that's he's not, I think you should take even more pride in the fact that he does it as well as he does. So you have to ask yourself, are you doing this for you, or for Finn? And who loves it more ? Dog sports should not have to include teeth gnashing and hair pulling ;D, well, maybe a little .
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Post by Nicole on May 9, 2004 7:34:33 GMT -5
I agree with both Richard and Laura. Both you and Finn are doing an outstanding job and enjoying yourself at the same time. That is what it is all about. Perfection is in the eye of the beholder. The next time that lady says something tell her, nicely of course, that a "working dog" would be too easy. ;D
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Post by Brooke on May 11, 2004 1:29:07 GMT -5
Who cares what they think. You aren't doing it for them. You are doing it for you and your dog and thats all that matters. If you love it, why quit? I am impressed you got a rhody doing all that anyway. He loves it because you love it and you are doing it together. What more could you ask for? I wish I could come and watch ;D Keep up the great work! ;D ;D ;D
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Post by sibemom on May 11, 2004 17:20:19 GMT -5
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Post by Aussienot on May 12, 2004 21:08:43 GMT -5
Thank you everyone for the support. I think that by letting Finn make "mistakes in order to learn" I've let him learn that he doesn't have to obey me off leash. Because he's really good off leash 85% of the time, it took me a while to realise that all my one-off breaks were becoming a pattern. Monday night saw yet another break from the course,so I've had an insight and come to a difficult decision. I'm pulling him out of group agility sessions until we get our off leash control problems resolved. I'm disappointed about this, but see it as a short-term sidestep for long term progress. Two Saturdays ago, I decided to order an e-collar. I wanted a Dogtra 1200 NCP, which needs to come from overseas, and it should be here in a couple of weeks. So I'll be an e-collar newbie, in the hands of probably the best e-collar trainer in Australia. We did a session with my professional trainer, Steve, and Finn did pretty well. ( ;D Initially the collar illicited a lot of mouthiness from Finn, and Steve suggested only half jokingly that he was bringing out the bite sleeve. I have to admit a certain amount of perhaps misdirected pride when a police dog trainer says my dog has strong nerves, good drive and calm grip.) However, it didn't take Finn long to settle down and 'velcro'. Steve is a mate of Lou Castles and believes in escape training, which I am reading all about and struggling with why it's better than avoidance. I don't think I'd be game to do it by myself. The laws on e-collars are very weird. Just like Prongs, they can't be imported assembled, but the parts can be legally imported. In my state, NSW, I need a letter from a Vet to prescribe use of an e-collar within the context of a humane training program. In most states they can't be used at all. I may have to take him out of weekly group obedience too, as I can't use the collar in class, and don't want to let him off leash without the collar for quite a while. The alternative would be to participate in a lower level class where he stays on lead, but I think that would be boring for us both. We'll keep up training at home, and hopefully this is the start up a path of less resistance.
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Post by Willow on May 14, 2004 9:05:18 GMT -5
While we were putting the equipment away, an overbearing woman who is highly placed in the dog world put an hand on my shoulder, and said "if you're serious about competing, get a Working Dog." No amount of drilling, training toys or videos on handling techniques will ever make him into a faux Border Collie. As usual, I can see both sides to the issue. I'm sure this lady meant this in a kind way, because she can tell how frustrated you and Finn both are, but as to "getting a working dog"....I believe ALL dogs are working dogs, but not ALL dogs are best suited for ALL "sports". I think she should have said something like, " You and Finn have come such a long way and your dedication and hard work is something to admire, but perhaps Finn would do better at something other than Agility, and it would be less frustrating for you both." But maybe I'm just being overly picky here in her choice of words. However, I do understand what she meant and as you have indicated, so do you, Aussie. I don't believe BC's are the only dogs that are good at Agility, but they do monopolize the sport, simply because of their, focus, "agility", speed AND desire to work closely with and take direction from the handler. I'll bet Finn would do wonderful at "Lure coursing", or at ''bite" work, as your trainer indicated. Or maybe even "flyball", where they just go straight out and straight back and just have one thing to focus on...getting the ball. What about SAR or something along those lines? Being the breed he is, he will have a wonderful "nose" on him, which they need in those things. Finn is probably thinking...."This Agility stuff is for sissies, and is sooooo boring!!! Give me some REAL work to do!" I think you have done wonderfully with Finn, which says so much for your training ability. Most people probably couldn't have brought Finn this far in Agility, but maybe this lady has a point, and rather than try to make Finn into something he is not, and causing you both so much pain and frustration, you should focus on what he would be better at and go there. I definately don't think the time you have spent with Finn in Agility was a waste of time, however. It has made you a much better trainer. Just think how far ahead of the game you will be if you ever do decide to stay with agility, but get a dog more suited to it. And think how happy Finn will be if you let him do the work he is better suited to do.
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Post by amyjo on Jul 17, 2004 9:21:24 GMT -5
I don't know how I missed this thread - very interesting reading....I experienced similar problems in agility too and that is why I pulled out. I too started e-collar training at that point and I think we are now almost ready to go back....
Linda - I am interested to know how it is going?
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Post by Aussienot on Jul 17, 2004 18:41:08 GMT -5
We've been using the e-collar for about 6 weeks now, and so far, so good. Initially he was a bit "nervy", mouthy and frustrated because he didn't understand the stimulation. But after just a few uses, he seemed to really 'get it' that compliance turns the collar off. Now he is just taking it in stride, and he has the same reaction to putting the ecollar on that he does to putting his prong on.
In training, we're limited to recall, sit, sit at a distance, and heeling. The sit at a distance is kind of fun - last night, he was at the top of the yard just sniffing around, and I got him to sit on the spot from inside the house. The idea with this exercise is to impress upon him that he is still under control even when he's away from my physical reach.
My trainer Steve doesn't want me proofing him around other dogs yet, so Finn's not been to group agility for about 8 weeks. We've been doing a lot of backyard agility where he is wearing the collar, but I don't use it.
So far, so good. If I can get the off leash control back to where it needs to be, then we can go back into the group activities.
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