armywife
puppy
My Hailee puppy :)
Posts: 30
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Post by armywife on Jan 30, 2004 22:23:58 GMT -5
I believe very much so!!! I work at a vet clinic and I am VERY sick of saying that pits and rots are such horrible dogs. I will admit some are more naturally agressive than others, but I do believe if u train them and love them, they wont all turn out to be such bad dogs, what do u think? ??
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Post by Laura on Jan 30, 2004 23:42:08 GMT -5
Nature vs. nurture . Yup, it's usually nurture in the case of a dog, but in over 20 years, I have sadly seen more than my share of genetically doomed animals (ya listening all you backyarders out there ;D?), but the majority are basically fine as long as you invest the time and the training.
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Post by Aussienot on Feb 1, 2004 0:47:56 GMT -5
It's mostly how you raise them, but lousy genetics will win out more often than not. You will certainly ruin a good dog by not training; but the best training in the world won't salvage a mental time bomb.
Sadly IMHO Pitts and Rotts (and many other cool breeds) have been driven the the edge of ruin by over-popularity, puppy mills and and backyard breeding. They are wonderful breeds, but I would guess there are more bad ones than good ones in circulation. Too many people try to cash in on the crest of demand, and breed any animal they happen to own. No thought to temperament, genetic soundness or improving the breed.
The dog breeds which have have aggressive tendancies in particular seem to attract the stupid breeding frenzy. These breeds also attract the kind of people least likely to be responsible owners. Check out any issue of Dog Fancy and scan the ads. Look at the current craze for "fighting dogs" like Pitts, Presa Canario, Presa Mallorquin, Cane Corsos, Dogo Argentino, Dogue De Bordeaux. Ads screaming out "BIGGEST HEADS, JAWS OF STEEL, POWERFUL DRIVE, ALL MUSCLE", and kennel names like Monster Squad, K9 Rage, Land of Giants, and Heavyweight Division don't indicate that even the serious kennels that are breeding with intent are aiming for household pets.
Without training these dogs are doomed, but many owners are not up the the training needs of these dogs.
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Post by Richard on Feb 1, 2004 8:49:45 GMT -5
What those breeders (and the big companies) are selling is an image....and as Barnum said, "there's a sucker born every minute" and these suckers get sucked into buying a dog that is WAY beyond what they can handle...some of those breeds aussienot listed are not exactly your "lap type" dogs, they have a drive and body mass that is beyond your typical type dog....mix in some really backwards backyard breeding by idiots and you've got a recepie for disaster...sadly the dog community as a whole gets whitewashed by the news media and it turns into a vicious circle of acusations...but the people who get away are the backyard breeders that turned this mix-match of DNA loose...
A neighbour across the street with female french bulldog (for SB'rs, remember, she's no bigger than 15lb and chased Rocky (90lb) into our house one day by charging him...her owner asked if Rocky was "socialized?"...I said if he wasn't, she'd be spread over our front lawn right now. That didn't phase her a bit..go figure eh?). Anyway, she never go the dog fixed and decided to do some home breeding with another dog that wasn't even the same breed!!! You call that responsible pet ownership? I call it needless but to them it was probably fun and a neat experiment!!
Anyway, you get a lot of dysfunctional dogs out there becuase dysfunctional humans take no concern in how they breed them and then unsuspecting future pet owners (who have done no homework on the breed) then think they want a dog and go right for the nastiest, biggest, headstrong dog they can find....then all of a sudden, whoops, problems start and they end up dumping the dog saying it was the dogs fault....my how convenient eh?
This problem is twofold...one the breeder (which could include your backyard variety) or the ones who call themselves "professionals" who tinker way way too much with the breed (N.A. GSD's vs German GSD's as an example - yeah, there is a big difference!) and then the buyer who doesn't do thier homework, or just gets a big dog for the status but never puts a minute of training into it or those who buy dogs at pet shops because the owner says he buys from ethical breeders....sure..ya right.
Until the bodies of government step up and start to enforce more of the laws that are in place to protect the public from these DNA misfits they release and make those who think they can own these kinds of dogs more accountable(proof of training ect.), we'll continue to have this problem of breeds of dogs getting slammed cuz of thier behaviour...why not go back to the start and nail the S.O.B's who started this mess or blame the owners for not taking the time to train thier dog...?
-Richard
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Post by sibemom on Feb 1, 2004 13:51:21 GMT -5
Bravo Richard! As always well written ;D
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Post by Laura on Feb 1, 2004 17:27:28 GMT -5
Richard, you should have seen my FIL watch the dog show last night, he was ready to have a stroke when he saw the national champ Shepherd! He too, has a German working line GSD, he HATES what they've done to the breed here in this country.
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Post by Willow on Feb 1, 2004 21:12:13 GMT -5
Yes, it's pathetic!!!! And I hate to see the *standard* for the other breeds too! Like the Cocker, for example. They call it a *sporting breed*, but it's coat is so long it would be so matted with burrs, twigs and berry bushes if it were ever to get out in the field, it would have to be shaved afterwards! Same with the Springer! All the *working* Springer's I've seen have much shorter coats, by breeding, not clipping. To insure a dog in the US is ruined beyond recognition is just have it become *recognized* as a breed by the AKC. Ack!
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Jeff
puppy
Posts: 44
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Post by Jeff on Mar 2, 2004 14:21:53 GMT -5
Ok, I am going to have to disagree here. In the case of the American Pit Bull Terrier, I firmly believe that nurture can only take you so far. I know many APBT's that are fine with other dogs, but I know just as many that were socialized properly from a young age, that detest other dogs upon maturity. It is important to keep in mind what these dogs were originally bred for (to fight other dogs.) The golden rule with pitties is "Never trust your dog not to fight with another dog." I have seen owners at the dog park crying because their pit attacked another dog followed by the all-too familiar phrase "I dont understand. Boopsy has always been fine with other dogs." Furthermore, it irritates me when I see other pits at the dog park off-leash. Sometimes all it takes is a weird smell, another dog running in a funny manner, whatever of a million reasons and you have a big problem on your hands. I am not saying that all pits are vicious towards other animals, but it is important to know what your dog is capable of. Getting back to the point of nurture with regards to pits, socialization is a MUST if you want to give your pittie the best chance to get along with other dogs. And yes, I agree that genetics are very important (with regards to temperament, etc.) BUT, there is no guarantee that just because the bitch and stud are well-tempered, that your dog will be the same way. Look at two OFA-excellent dogs that produce a litter with hip dysplasia. So, I guess my answer is that nurture is very important, but in many cases it cannot overpower the nature of the dog.
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Post by sibemom on Mar 2, 2004 16:49:38 GMT -5
Good job Jeff I am a firm believer that you need to do your research on the breed you are considering because as you said you need to understand every aspect of their tempermant and behaviors. My pup is great with other dogs BUT I also know that if challanged it is in his nature to defend himself. He would never initiate the fight but he would do what he had to to finish it. That is why I have trained him to ignore and let me deal with it.
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