|
Post by Aussienot on Feb 7, 2004 22:30:14 GMT -5
I am a Purely Positive sceptic, but I've just finished reading 'Purely Positive Training' Companion to Competition by Shelia Booth, and I have to say it's a pretty good general training book. It explains the basics without being sanctimonious or preachy about purely positive.
I liked her 'Schutzhund Obedience Training in Drive' a lot. It really help me understand Finn's prey drive and how to use it for good, not evil. I saw that Leerburg sold 'Purely Positive', and she trains Schutzhund dogs, so the book has some street cred.
The '10 Commandments of Positive Training' could apply to many good trainers no matter what label you put on it.
1) Be proactive. Anticpate unwanted behavior, so you can prevent it, or teach an alternate behavior.
2) Keep trying. Recognise when your dog is trying, even if he's not getting it completely right.
3) Forgive forgetting. Forgetting is part of learning a new behavior, so again, if your dog is trying, direct, don't correct.
4) Follow the ABCs - Antecedents (commands or clues) Behavior-Concequence (reward)
5) Break training into steps
6) Shift context early - training in different locations
7) Premack it - which is just like Nothing in Life is Free. All heaven comes through you, and the dog gets something he wants as soon as he does something you want.
8) Help them learn - instead of drilling and correcting, let them "figure it out". You are the coach, not the commander, and failure to perform is not a direct challenge to authority. 9) Do no damage. Be fair. If your dog is stressed or nervous, don't see this as a challenge to your authority. Be creative and think of another way to show your dog what you want him to do.
10) Have fun training. Be enthusiastic and energetic.
As for corrections, she writes:
" For now, put off any corrections. You can always get around to them later if you choose. Today, put them off for one more training session. Keep showing the dog the way, rewarding the behavior you want. Teach him just a little bit longer. Trust that he is giving you his best.
Help your dog to learn. Tune into him just a little bit more closely. See if you can't find a way to learn it together. Put off the correction on more day, and ask yourself "is the dog really entitled to this correction?"
OK, so it's a little bit out there. But it's going into my training library.
|
|
|
Post by Nicole on Feb 7, 2004 22:56:42 GMT -5
I am very much into positive training until I know in my heart and soul and gut that the refusal to obey a learned command is willful disobedience. Then and only then will I correct. And in that circumstance I have no problem correcting. But, teaching should be all positive. That is something I agree with totally. So no, I agree, it is not all bad.
|
|
|
Post by Willow on Feb 8, 2004 14:01:20 GMT -5
I agree. I also like Patricia McConnells books/booklets/video's and have picked up good advise from her as well. Plus I like her as a person. She makes mistakes and admits to it. ;D
|
|
|
Post by sibemom on Feb 8, 2004 16:07:25 GMT -5
Oh yes I love Dr. Pat's books, video's etc... You know her whole group is so great. I have e-mailed them several times about somethings and they were so nice to get back to me even gave me a specific person to keep in touch with. I agree with the postivie aspect of training but I also agree with correction when needed. You need a balance. I have always praised treated and coaxed Blade into the behavior I wanted and I have also given him some REALLY GOOD corrections for his out and out non-complience.
|
|
|
Post by Brooke on Feb 8, 2004 17:17:32 GMT -5
I'll have to look that book up. I agree. I am beginning to lean a bit more to the positive side as well. I'm not correcting quite as much as I used to but I also agree that you need to correct when the dog knows what it is supposed to do yet does not.... You gotta do what you gotta do....
I think theres positive training which involves necissary corrections and then there is purely positive training which ignores the bad behavior. I do not agree with purely positive at all.
|
|
|
Post by Aussienot on Feb 8, 2004 18:32:14 GMT -5
The marketer in me wants to come up with a name for positive with corrections when needed. Positive Plus? Don't tell me perfect pups with Positive Plus wouldn't sell.
|
|
|
Post by amyjo on Feb 8, 2004 19:03:29 GMT -5
TOTALLY ...positive whenever possible and corrections when they are required. Also when I do correct, I never never give the correction with out redirection to an appropriate behavior or a chance to do whatever it was right.
|
|
|
Post by Willow on Feb 9, 2004 14:17:40 GMT -5
You know how it is said that as we get older we *mellow*. It's true. I have really *mellowed* in my training and it came back to *bite me* last night. My husband and I always eat in the living room. Bad habit, but we do it anyway. If the dogs are in the house, they are expected to go lie down, not beg etc., Well, Pup has always stood sideways at the foot of my recliner when I am not eating, and I will rub him with my foot. Fine. But lately he wants to do that when we are eating too, and my husband hates it because his tail is going constantly and *he* says there is hair flying around. He's wrong, but we have to keep peace in the hh, so I decided Pup can't do that anymore when we are eating, so last night I told him to *go lie down* and of course, he didn't want to do it!!! I had to get up and make him do it, and you would have thought I was being really mean to him, although I didn't take him by the collar or anything...just pointed to his bed and told him to *go lie down*....then he would immediately get back up, so I had to work with him for several minutes before he finally was convinced I meant it and stayed there!!!!! No more *Mrs nice gal* on my part, let me tell you! Now if he is in, he is going to be lying down while we eat!! Good lesson for me in *consistancy* and practicing what I preach!
|
|
|
Post by sibemom on Feb 9, 2004 17:14:50 GMT -5
Oh Loey we all get caught up in the "Gosh your such a good puppy" mode ;D. There must have been something in the air last night because we too had a session of "GO TO YOUR HOUSE" I have been backing off a little on Blade to see if his jumpy behavior is my fault. So last night I was in the living room and he was gated in the kitchen like always, we have an antique pantry cupboard that I keep canned goods etc.. in our kitchen. Well all of a sudden I hear this crinkeling noise, I brush it off then I hear it again I got up to look and here was this GOOF with a box of spag noodles strewn all over the floor His back was to me and when I firmly said "BLADE WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?" He turned to look at me and I thought he was a porcupine. Noodles sticking out of his mouth in both directions. I then proceded to tell him "IN YOUR HOUSE" got no response then again "IN YOUR HOUSE" nothing. Then it was "IN YOUR HOUSE DAMIT" >:(he got the point. Like you said Loey NO MORE MRS. NICE GUY
|
|
|
Post by Nicole on Feb 9, 2004 17:41:44 GMT -5
;D If you give an inch, they will take a mile. That is so true. I also have found that if I don't issue a command for a time, Reign's performance level would drop sometimes to nonexistent. He will look at me as if to say "I thought we were done with that command." There have been times when I just have no reason to issue certain commands for weeks or more and then when I do, he will not obey right away or do so veeeeeeeerrrryyyy slowly. I have learned from my experience that training is a life long endeavor. I don't think there ever is a point that you can stop practicing or that you can give an inch. If you let them do something twice, they think that is the new routine.
|
|
|
Post by Aussienot on Feb 9, 2004 19:53:54 GMT -5
;D
You mean you couldn't ignore that behavior? LOL at the mental image of that.
|
|
|
Post by sibemom on Feb 9, 2004 19:59:52 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Willow on Feb 10, 2004 16:38:35 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Richard on Feb 10, 2004 23:29:41 GMT -5
Call me goofy but I am learning, with Rocky's help, that good training is a mix of positive, afirmative, corrective and consistency all rolled into one....
As he's matured, I've mellowed (as Loey pointed out, we all have to a degree) and I find myself still being the alpha dog but I don't have to enforce the rules as much. I am lucky Rocky has such an excellent temperment but I know all the work we did over the first 3 years with him are now starting to pay off.
I guess what I am trying to say is that, unless its a really gross misconduct penalty (like a bark/lunge towards another dog - yes it still happens occasionally), I find a firm voice and a look is all I need to get him back in line. Of course, he still has that stubbourn GSD side but we dont' see that side very much...I don't make excuses for Rocky..if he screws up, its usually my fault cuz I wasn't paying attention...fortunately though, he's turned into an excellent companion and my buddy....
So, I still think that I took the right path with him from the start with the prong collar and a firm leadership stance because it seems to have imprinted on his brain that no matter what may ever happen, I will always be there for him and take care of things...all he needs to do is bark at the door when someone comes over (hey, its a living) and behave himself around visitors (which he does). The tone and the frequency of the corrections has slowly lessened as he's getting older...so in a way, I am doing a positive corrections thing now I guess eh?
So there you have it then.....I guess you can mix apples and oranges sometimes and come out with a very pleasant result...
-Richard
|
|
|
Post by Willow on Feb 11, 2004 10:59:52 GMT -5
You are right, Richard. Just like with children it's how they are trained when they are young that counts the most, although training at any age should be done and it's never too late for them to learn. It's just a lot easier before bad habits have solidly set in. They can be re-trained, but it can be more difficult.
That's good about not making excuses for your dog OR you. As you said, if a dog is trained and then screws up, it is usually the owner's fault, but also all it usually takes to correct the problem is convincing the dog that the *rules* haven't changed and because of the training they received in the beginning, they will be easily convinced to do it your way. ;D
|
|