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Post by Willow on Jul 6, 2004 11:38:57 GMT -5
I decided to start another thread, since I, once again, hi-jacked someone else's. I find it interesting that we "assume" wild animals have a genetically programmed "fear" of certain things, however, if you watch the nature shows on t.v., you realize that the very young do not appear to have a "built in fear", but it is only until experience or their parents teach them what to be afraid of, that it appears. This is also true of adult animals that have not had the opportunity to have previously seen human's. They are not "instinctively" afraid of us the first time we meet. It is only the animals that are hunted by humans that become afraid, and they in turn, pass it along to their offspring.
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Post by Willow on Jul 6, 2004 14:07:37 GMT -5
To elaborate on my previous post: I was in a hurry to leave to go to a meeting, so now I will finish it. ;D
We are "programmed" to believe that dogs "genetically" go through "fear periods" and that they are "normal". We hear this from breeders, behaviorists and trainer's. On top of that, all of us living today only have the dogs past and present in our lives, as examples.
It was only when I began to "think outside the box" so to speak, and start thinking about wild animals that it all "clicked" and fell into place for me.
Wild animals do not have an inherent fear of anything. Very young wild animals are curious, yes, but not afraid. It is only through experience of almost being killed by another animal, or from the pack/herd reacting to something that they develop this "fear". It's a survival thing, but they are not genetically predisposed to this fear.
Why, since our dogs are decendents of the wild Wolf, should they then be any different? They shouldn't be, unless there is something that changed them genetically, because domestication alone would not/could not change them "genetically".
This is where the vaccine's come in, and as in "fear periods", specifically, the rabies vaccine. They are simply mirroring, or displaying the symptoms of the disease.
Impossible? Not to me after I took into account the normal behavior of our canines wild ancestor's.
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Post by sibemom on Jul 6, 2004 16:37:13 GMT -5
You have a point there Loey. Fear is a learned behavior. I am not sure if it is the genetics though. I would look at it more as enviormental compounded yes probably by vaccines. Wild animals do not have us phobia riden humans to expose them to all of our hang ups and fears. If you watch certain family's what Mom and Dad are afraid of is always passed down to their kids. My Dad was afraid of heights and so am I. I don't think that was genetic I think it was from watching him freak out when he had to go up in the silo. Has there ever been a study to show if say wolves for instance become more fearful after being taken into captivity? I wonder , if there has not been then there should be.
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Post by Nicole on Jul 6, 2004 17:04:31 GMT -5
Or it could be an opposing effect. The fear period is essential for the dog to become a confident well adjusted adult. A right of passage so to speak. And the fear isn't aimed at anything in particular. It is random with each dog and it is fleeting. It passes quickly. If it were from a genetic mutation, I don't think it would pass in 10 days.
I compare it to the terrible two's. Why is it acceptable for a human child to behave like a lunatic or a teenager to behave like a rebellious horror. These time periods are essential for emotional and social growth and well adjustment. I think this thought process also applies to fear periods for dogs and their teenage rebellion as well. It is a part of maturing.
That is how I see it. ;D
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Post by Willow on Jul 6, 2004 17:57:39 GMT -5
I still don't know about the "genetics" part of it for a couple of reasons. First of all, as I said, wild animals are not born with any fears. They are learned.
Human children do go through "rebellious" periods while maturing, but they do not go through actual "fear periods" like our dogs do. I think there is a difference and would think "fear periods" would hinder, not help.
I don't feel the "fear periods" in our dogs are essential at all, because they, of all animals, don't need them. If anything, wild animals should be born with them, and domestication by now should have bred them out of our dogs, if they are genetically predisposed to them, but they are getting more pronounced.
It has also been documented that these "fear periods" co-incide with when we normally vaccinate them against rabies.
It is also interesting to note that if un-vaccinated dogs are religiously bred to each other, it takes 10 generations for this "fear period" to be bred out of the pups. That would suggest that vaccinations do affect the DNA somehow.
However, in my personal experience, not all of the pups I raised went through a "fear period", but then, I also did not vaccinate most of my pups until recent years. (approx. the last 15 yrs.)
It most likely isn't a genetic mutation, but I definately do feel it is linked to the rabies vaccine.
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Post by sibemom on Jul 6, 2004 18:24:16 GMT -5
Well that would be just like getting the flu shot. Most are the killed virus, but yet you can replicate flu symptoms. I know with Blade this is twice now that he has had some kind of behavior change shortly after his rabies shot. The fearful, timid, and the first time aggresive behavior would replicate rabies. There is validity in this assumption.
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Post by Nicole on Jul 6, 2004 20:12:27 GMT -5
It has also been documented that these "fear periods" co-incide with when we normally vaccinate them against rabies. OK, I find this statement to be very interesting, Actually Ann, I was mistaken, the fear period goes to 16 months which would approximately coincide with the one year rabies. I have to think back when Reign started tail tucking when he met new people for a short time. Now that I think about it, it may have coincided with the one year rabies. Hmmmmmm. I do believe that the rabies vaccine can cause problems. I am just not convinced if it is hereditary.
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Post by Willow on Jul 6, 2004 20:32:37 GMT -5
I do believe that the rabies vaccine can cause problems. I am just not convinced if it is hereditary. That's where I am right now too, Nicki, however, after reading the article on vaccines and DNA changes, I do feel it is a possibility. I will not say positivly that it "can't happen." How many times have scientists said this or that is absolute or could never be, only to later find out it "could be" and "Was". Scientists make mistakes too, because like all of us, they are only human and "learning". ;D
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Post by amyjo on Jul 6, 2004 21:36:53 GMT -5
Maybe I am on crack - this certainly isn't my field...but just from my laymans perspective.....
Environmental assaults can effect offspring with out being hereditary...look at fetal alchohol syndrome, radiation, or the birth defects caused by thalidomide in the 50's..
A vaccine might not change DNA but it sure does make changes to the immune system..and since immunity is passed from the mother to the offspring via anti-bodies then why wouldn't any adverse effects also be transmitted? It isn't so far fetched for me to believe the fear period or other effects could easily become a multi-generational problem.
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Post by sibemom on Jul 7, 2004 4:52:28 GMT -5
See that is my thought to. I know there is alot that can be transmitted geneticly, I don't think fear is one of them but as you said Amy enviormental issues can transmit to offspring. I do think if a dog is weak nerved to begin with they can transmit that to their offspring and other outside influences can make it worse. This whole fear thing is new to me because I don't ever remember pup's going through it, untill I got Blade. If it did happen I must of just shrugged it off, or it was not as pronouced as it was with him. It is good to at least think about these issues and discuss them so that you can come to some conclusions on your own I know with him I can pin point exactly when he had these episodes and yes maybe it is labled as a fear stage that dogs go throug but it is also the same age they get their first rabies and their 3 year rabies. Kind of makes you wonder
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Post by Willow on Jul 7, 2004 10:33:58 GMT -5
I do think if a dog is weak nerved to begin with they can transmit that to their offspring Exactly, but the question is: Where do the "weak nerves" come from? Environment, genetic "mistakes" or "weaknesses" from inbreeding or whatever, OR from years of vaccinating the parent dogs and having their DNA altered? I think this is turning into, "Which came first. The chicken or the egg", and I think we also went through this before here....didn't we? ;D I think it's important, as you say though, to study this and discuss it etc. so we at least have an "informed opinion" when we make our final decision...or something like that. I don't know anymore. ;D
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Post by amyjo on Jul 7, 2004 10:46:04 GMT -5
You know what - when I approach a problem - I like to think about it holistically...
For example if anyone ever came to me with aggression issues... I would reccommend limited vaccines, raw diet, NILIF, OB training, increased exercise and a muzzle.
This is a similar thing - I don't think it is so much a chicken or egg dealio, as it is a convergence of environmental and genetic circumstances that ALL need to be addressed.
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Post by Aussienot on Jul 10, 2004 0:15:30 GMT -5
Hey Amyjo - please do more crack, because you are definately making sense to me.
I wish I had taken more science in school because all of this is out of my league.
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