Jeff
puppy
Posts: 44
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Post by Jeff on Mar 1, 2004 14:28:44 GMT -5
Another great thread Geez, I seem like I am saying that before every post of mine, hehe. I know a couple vet techs who SWEAR to me that feeding raw bones is a bad idea. They justify it by telling me that even though the bones are raw, they can still splinter and cause intestinal problems. I asked them if this was just a myth, and they told me that they have seen dogs come into their office w/ problems from raw bones. Do they make a good point, or are they just Anyone want to shed some light on this? Thanks!
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Post by Willow on Mar 1, 2004 15:32:31 GMT -5
Sure it can happen. A bone can splinter and puncture their throat or intestines if a dog does not chew them well, but that hardly ever happens with raw bones and happens less often than a dog getting allergies or other serious illness from feeding the *K* word.
Plus, if a Vet sees this happen one time during their practice or even just hears about it happening, and are against rawfeeding, they really make a big deal out of it and don't tell you about the dogs who have choked to death on ki**le or gotten bloat from ki**le and died etc. There are more ki**le fed dogs who die from bloat than raw fed dogs die from splintered bones, not to mention the dogs who die from choking on rawhides or who have blocked intestines from rawhides, yet most vets say rawhides are fine to give your dog, ....and the list goes on.
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Post by amyjo on Mar 1, 2004 15:41:12 GMT -5
Jeff - I think the vet techs are right - I mean why would they lie to you? But dogs also choke on kibble or swallow bits of chew toy or have splintering problems with cooked bones or bloat caused by a rawhide.
There is risk in a dogs life - we can't eliminate it completley or it wouldn't be much of a life ;D
I happen to think dogs need bones. I was always one of those people who fed any and every kind of cooked bone (except poultry) which might be why I was able to make the jump to raw ones. I think the clean teeth they get from bones are an important component to good health and I don't think getting knocked out once a year for dental cleaning is a good way to achieve it.
I know totally where you are coming from because I was just there about a month ago. I researched for 6 months ( a journey that was undertaken because I had just lost a dog to heart cancer and had another one with a malignant melanoma) I had so many questions and so many concerns - but the clincher for me was that a bunch of people I really respect are feeding raw with great success.
I guess the greatest evidence for me that dogs generally digest raw bones and splintering risk is minimal is the little piles of poop powder in my back yard. I swear they dry up and turn to powder - I have not seen one pile that has anything that remotely looks like a piece of bone in it. Gross? yep! - convincing? definately!
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Post by Willow on Mar 1, 2004 16:05:58 GMT -5
Amyjo, I hope you don't feed cooked bones now or think they are o.k. to feed do you? Cooked bones of any kind should never be fed, and any raw bones are never inappropriate.
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Post by sibemom on Mar 1, 2004 16:20:42 GMT -5
You know what Amy I too would hate to think that a vet or vet tech would out and out lie to you BUT it does happen because it happened to me. When Blade got so sick from his Heartgaurd plus. They both told me that there were no other meds to replace it. THAT was a lie. When I told them that he could hardly walk for 2 weeks after his Lymes Shot they said that never happens, that was a lie. When they told me that there is no such thing as vaccinosis THAT WAS A BIG LIE. I think it is their duty to tell you about ALL options when considering treatment for your dog whether they agree with them or not. If they have an objection then they should tell you that it is just their opinion, because alot of the things they say you should'nt do have no scientific backing to show you why it's bad. It should be your choice not theirs just like when you go to the doctor for yourself or family. I know that bones do scare alot of people but your dog can be outside chewing on a stick and get wood splinters that can cause just as much damage as a bone splinter. I think that with the raw bones there is very little chance of that happening. If your dog is a gulper then you have to feed bigger so it takes them longer to eat it then there is less chance of them swallowing it whole. I don't think all of the techs or vets lie to you but in my case I found a whole clinic that liked to stretch the truth
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Post by amyjo on Mar 1, 2004 16:26:15 GMT -5
Amyjo, I hope you don't feed cooked bones now or think they are o.k. to feed do you? Cooked bones of any kind should never be fed, and any raw bones are never inappropriate. Loey - I am a reformed cooked bone feeder and have been clean for about 6 months - I switched to raw recreational bones because I was finally convinced that the splintering possiblity of a cooked bone outweighed the bacterial concerns of a raw one.
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Jeff
puppy
Posts: 44
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Post by Jeff on Mar 1, 2004 19:27:47 GMT -5
The reason I thought it was interesting was because I was told this by two techs from different hospitals, who I dont even go to. I dont give my dogs any bones anymore. In the past I have given them femur bones, which they can break down and start eating in no time. I made the stupid mistake to leave them with a rawhide bone in each of their kennels. I returned home 20 minutes later to see they had both completely eaten it. However, I am very interested in raw food with regards to bloat. Bloat def. scares the bejesus out of me, as it can happen in the blink of an eye. It feels as though I know way too many dog owners who have had dogs pass away from bloat
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Post by Aussienot on Mar 1, 2004 20:34:52 GMT -5
I lost an Irish Setter to bloat about 5 years ago, and it's a tragic and unpredictable thing. I read a lot about it at the time. About the only thing I saw scientific agreement on is that: 1) deep chested breeds are more prone to it 2) gas producing foods (KIBBLE, anyone?) are implicated 3) exercise soon before or after eating is implicated
Apart from that, some research says raise the bowls to reduce bloat and other research says raising the bowls increases bloat. Some research says do not provide water one hour on either side of eating to minimise bloat and some research says always provide ample water to minimise bloat. Some research says it's genetic and some proves it's environmental.
I don't know if there is any medical evidence that a biologically appropriate diet reduces the chances of bloat. I believe it has to help.
I have been told by Dr Billinghurst that a 'fast day' as part of a raw feeding diet helps prevent bloat. Here's why, as I understand it: Fasting is a normal occurrence for carnivores. Carnivore digestion was not designed to work constantly, and it needs rest occasionally to work efficiently. The stomach acid produced by an empty stomach is different from the stomach acid produced by a digesting stomach. Resting stomach acid is supposed to thicken and strengthen the stomach lining, and a stronger stomach lining is more able to withstand the factors that cause bloat.
I saw something similar on Leerburg when I was exploring raw feeding before I switched, but I couldn't find it now. Hopefully one of the others will have more evidence of this.
And just one point from your earlier post. Rawhides in bone shape are chew toys, they are not really bones.
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Post by Brooke on Mar 2, 2004 2:49:06 GMT -5
That makes a lot of sense actually. I always had a hard time with the whole bloat issue. So much conflicting information. I think the whole raised bowl thing comes from the commercial aspect of the world...I worked at Petland for 2 days once, mostly curious. I quit after doing my homework on the company. I learned a lot about them and their suppliers. They insisted that their $60 bowls with stands were a mandatory push for sale when selling puppies because it decreases chance of bloat. Right....thats why it's a mandatory sale push.
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Post by Richard on Mar 2, 2004 8:21:20 GMT -5
If I can jump in here for a minute re: bloat....or the twisting of the dogs stomach(simple terms).
I know its not good, I too have seen a GSD die from it and like you Jeff with your dogs, it is one of the things we keep a close eye on with my GSD.
I can't comment about the diet (raw/kibble) causing it but in our home we have a very strict rule about it.....no excercise until one hour after Rocky has eaten or no feeding within 1 hour of him being excercised...that is a standing rule and we (my wife, daughter and me) make sure we're always aware of it. If we're not sure when he ate (say if he only ate 3/4 of the bowl), I'll still add an hour to the time from when I see the bowl to take him out for a walk to make sure.
As aussienot noted, it is a problem that is prone to dogs with deep chests (GSD's, DB's, Rotties) and it can be fatal if you dont' get your dog to the vet soon enough when you see the signs.
I know I haven't commented much about diet and bloat but I believe (and no I am no vet) its more connected to eating a large meal then excercising right away or vice-versa than what is being eaten so that is the point that we focus on in our home. Rocky eats out of a bowl on the floor too. So could it be the kibble and its weight or could we say eating raw or kibble then vigorous excercise can cause a problem?
If I may be so bold as to say this: as long as you understand the particular health risks or potential health problems of your pet and take the appropriate steps to address those risks (1 hour feed/excersise ect) than you can only prepare so far for if that day ever comes. If there is something that happens that we couldn't of foreseen, I can't really prepare for that. Raw/Kibble, to me is secondary the type and breed of dog first in this situation (like I said, I am no vet).
***As a sidenote, the local Police Service K9 officer out here where I live(when I was working for them for a while last year) was always very open about telling us the time she'd feed her 5 year old GSD Police Service Dog Gage(sounds like gauge)....she wouldn't bust the hour rule either....only, she said, if it involved the life of a Police officer would she even consider going out at 30 minutes after he had eaten. (fortunately, he's never been asked to do that part).
-Richard
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Post by Willow on Mar 2, 2004 10:13:46 GMT -5
;D I'm with you, Jeff. This is a good thread.
Everyone has some really good point. Sibemom, those were good points about dogs and sticks and about vaccinosis, Lymes etc. and the misinformation Vets give you.
Along those lines, several years ago, I was giving my dogs a *pill* for something....can't remember what it was now, and a friend said, "gee, that's funny! (the same vet) is giving my dog, as well as my brother's two dogs a shot for it." The vet didn't tell me there was a shot, but of course now I'm so thankful I didn't get it, because it's one of those they found out do more harm than good.
As for bloat, I don't think anyone knows for certain what causes it, but it does seem some dogs are more prone to it, plus I do feel gassy foods can cause it. We knew a fellow in Mt. whose Husky ate some sort of seed pods from a tree, (don't remember what kind of tree) and in a few hours the dog bloated and was dead before he could get him to a vet.
As far as large meals causing bloat, maybe if the meals are kibble, but as Aussienot said, a lot of raw feeder's have a *fast day* once a week or so, and a lot also feed by the gorge and fast method with no bloat problems. They feed their dogs a huge RMB's meal and then fast them for a day, because they say this is more like wolves and wild dogs eat. As of now though, I have no plans for ever feeding my dogs that way.
I also thought kibble fed dogs should be given lots of water with their meals for proper digestion, because the kibble soaks up so much water and can cause problems if it isn't replaced?? I know my dogs always drank a lot of water after their kibble meals, eventhough I also soaked the kibble in warm water before giving it to them. They drink a lot less water with raw feeding, which also means a lot less potty trips. My dogs often now go from like 7p.m. until 7 or 8 a.m. w/out wanting to go out, and Kerra has gone longer than that!
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Post by Richard on Mar 2, 2004 10:22:25 GMT -5
RE the water thing...yeah, Rocky loves his water....but sometimes its funny, at 2am in the morning, he'll do the drink canada dry routine and empty the bowl...why, hey, I ask him and he just looks at me and says, I was thirsty....
But I understand about the kibble/water thing...we put warm water in his too...but we watch his water intake (like we do have a life but this is part of owning a dog) and go from there...its always very consistant intake/output and times...well, sometimes, if we don't let him out for the last break of the night, Mr. Lovey-dovey will wake me up at 4am for a quickie potty break (as he did this morning)...then that is my fault not his.
I guess at the same time, and Loey or anyone who feeds raw, is that food extra moist? I mean, water content wise? I remember a while back, reading a book by a motivational speaker (Tony Little) who said we could get most of our water from fruits and it wasn't necessary to drink as much water...well, ok, everyones choice on that one, but does it apply to a raw diet too?
-Richard
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Post by amyjo on Mar 2, 2004 10:37:03 GMT -5
Richard - my dogs drink alot less water now. I have one of those five gallon dispensers and they barely put a dent in it now before I need to dump it and get fresh.
This is going to sound really gross - but have any of your dogs ever barfed kibble? Oh my gawd...two cups turns into like 20!!! When this happened at my house it was the next day and so the kibble had been in the dog for 8-10 hours ....it was far more expanded than if I had poured some water on it!
I wonder if this expansion inside the dog contributes to bloat?
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Post by Nicole on Mar 2, 2004 10:42:24 GMT -5
Apart from that, some research says raise the bowls to reduce bloat and other research says raising the bowls increases bloat. Which is the correct way to feed for a bloat prone dog? I use a raised bowl because I thought that was what you were supposed to use.
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Jeff
puppy
Posts: 44
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Post by Jeff on Mar 2, 2004 10:50:03 GMT -5
LOL, aussienot! I just reread my post in reference to me mentioning rawhides and bones in the same sentence I get a little when I dont get much sleep.
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