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Post by barefaced on Jan 14, 2005 14:10:52 GMT -5
Hi, what is the best way to introduce my 1 year old shep/beagle cross to some doggy friends? I kind of got bullied into letting him meet a friends husky the other night and I regretted it afterwards. She is 8 years old and is twice the size of my boy so if anything I thought he would be scared of her. Anyway that he most certainly wasnt!!! He growled (I kept him on his leash) and barked but was wagging his tail. We took this to be he was comfortable as he was dying to play. He then launched himself at her and didnt actually bite her but had his teeth at the back of her neck. My friend then put Nishka outside so Max could have a sniff about and he was crying at the patio door to get to her to play. It was a mixture of feelings from him. The next day I was at another friend who has a 2 year old Chocolate Lab and he did the same thing there. He cried to get out of the car so we did it slowly and he did the same thing again. The only difference was that Nishka didnt retaliate but Pooley did so he got sent back outside and we left. We're going to try it again as these are our best friends so we are taking them to neutral ground like the beach so neither of them feel threatened. Any advice as to what to do with my delightful boy?
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Post by Richard on Jan 14, 2005 22:47:49 GMT -5
Hi there,
You will find two different opinions regarding your situation. There are variations but these two are the main ones. Without setting off too many landminds, I'll try to describe each here and you can decide where you want to go.
One side is those who believe in socializing and with that comes dog parks, setting up dog playtime ect ect...thier dog's personality is the "lets have fun, who cares who's in charge?" type. Those types of owners/dogs have a lot of fun because everyone knows everyones dogs. It's fairly balanced and no dog will take advantage of another.
The other side, and the one I believe in, is that once your puppy is grown, you don't need to socialize him/her anymore...by the time they are an adult, with proper training, you're all the family he/she needs. This means avoiding dog parks or going out of your way to force your dog to meet other dogs. I know that dog parks is another issue where everyone will pick a piece of turf and defend it but unless you know the people there (and thier dogs), who do you trust?
To me, as alpha, it's my job to protect my dog. That means not putting him or me into situations we're not ready for. As he has gotten older and our training continues, we've encountered more situations that we handle. That doens't mean I'm ready to run up to every dog and let them sniff..in fact, most times, it's offleash dogs in the park charging us and the dog trying to cram his nose up Rocky's backside - with me getting in-between and getting Rocky behind me. Yeah, it's frustrating but not every dog is meant to get along with others and I'm not going to force Rocky to get to know other dogs.
You noted you "got bullied" into having your dog meet another one? How did that happen? Those are the things where you gotta put your foot down and say NO, I don't think me or him is ready for that, nor may he ever.
You have a choice to make and I'm sure there are other options but it actually starts with you and your dog. He needs to learn to trust you - that you won't let him get hurt or in a position where he will get the *$ kicked out of him by a bigger dog (or a smaller one...don't' laugh, there was a JRT in our complex who kicked a fully grown Aussie Shep one day....thanks to that attack, the Aussie is suspicious of every dog that comes within 30 feet of her now). Conversely, it's your job to make sure he doesn't misbehave or take advantage of other dogs...and of course, he needs listens to you all the time. That means no growling or lunging at other dogs ect...if you tell him to knock it off and leave it, he has to comply.
If you choose to just train him and have him behave around other dogs (like when you're on the beach...far enough away that the dogs don't tease each other or start to scarp), then that is ok too. But that will take time to get to that point. You guys are just starting out together (if I remembered correctly) so for now, it's building that trust with him...if you never have a social time with another dog, that's ok too...what you will have is a well trained dog who trusts you and looks up to you as alpha.
-Richard
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Post by sibemom on Jan 15, 2005 9:04:35 GMT -5
Well said Richard I firmly believe that the whole issue of socializing your puppy with other puppies has gotten WAY out of controll. I have always tried to expose my pups to other pups and fortuanatly have never had problems. What I see now though is people comming into a begginers OB class with a dog that was never exposed to anything but their home enviorment and that does bring up problems. Dogs do not need to have DOG FREINDS, they need to have their family be the total focus of their lives. Of course you want your dog to act appropriatly when out in public, in case you do encounter other dogs, and you will, but it is not nessicary for them to be all wiggly and playful with them. As long as like Richard said they are not lunging, growling, or snapping at the dogs they encounter then you did your job. I find it is much more important to socialize your dog to PEOPLE than other dogs. All it takes is for a nice dog freindly dog to be attacked by one that is dog aggresive and then you can end up with the same a dog that HATES other dogs because of what happened. Work on your OB training, teach the LEAVE IT COMMAND, make sure your dog has a ROCK SOLID RECALL and I think you will do just fine. I think the idea of watching dogs play and romp peacfully with each other is a humane need, not something a dog needs at all. They are OUR companions not the companions of other dogs
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Post by Willow on Jan 15, 2005 10:14:28 GMT -5
You both said it very well, so for once I will zip it! ;D
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Post by barefaced on Jan 15, 2005 11:53:30 GMT -5
Lol...point taken everyone
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BeTrue
Trained
Banned
Posts: 217
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Post by BeTrue on Jan 15, 2005 17:30:28 GMT -5
You got great advice from K9Rocky and sibemom. And, like sibemom said, socializing with other people is the most important thing. Of course, you'll want him to behave around other dogs as well. Perhaps an obedience class (with a SMALL number of dogs in it...nothing more then 6 in my opinion) would help to teach him attention and to listen. However, if thats too much at this point, private lessons might be in order, and move on from there, once he gets used to the place and trainer. I ALSO agree that you should make sure you know who your dog is meeting up with. Bad situations with other dogs DO leave scars. Unlike people (we might have someone start yelling at us, but we don't hate everyone for it), one bad encounter could set you back many weeks in training and socializing and actually make your dog worst off then he was. So, here I am babbling on when everything I said was probably already covered. I just wanted to say that your dog probably loves his human companionship. I know some dogs LOVE playing with other dogs and can't seem to live without them. However, if your dog isn't like that, theres no reason to force him to have friends...he's already got you.
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Post by Willow on Jan 15, 2005 18:47:44 GMT -5
Yep! My female Aussie, although being raised with other dogs and only being an "only" dog for three months after Pup died, was very happy those three months to be the only dog, and much prefers it that way! ;D
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Post by sibemom on Jan 15, 2005 19:22:40 GMT -5
Yes Loey I am finding that Willow likes being an only dog too. She loved and worshiped Blade no question there and she still mourns him a bit, but her love for him might not be the case if I ever bring home a second dog. She will mind herself because she is a very good girl, but the second dog would be for ME, not for her. She never goes out of her way to make freinds with other dogs, she behaves for the most part but never initiates interactions, and that's ok. I have done my best and will keep on top of her to make sure she does not show aggresion to other dogs but as far as her need to play with them if she wants to fine, but if not I and the rest of our family are always willing playmates
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Post by barefaced on Jan 15, 2005 20:10:45 GMT -5
Well we met up with different friends this evening and my husband was adamant Max was going with us for a few beers round the fire in the yard (us not the dog I hasten to add!!lol) Anyway we took him and me being me I was very paranoid he was going to attack their 7 year old male. I couldnt have been further wrong!! They loved each other and couldnt stop playing and chasing each other. I did actually feel second best at one point!! I know youre all saying he doesnt need other canine companionship but he genuinely loved being with Monte. Now I always thought males fought males and females fought females in any kind of animal so why is he lovely with males but seemed aggressive towards females. My husband said that he was like it with the bitches because he was seeing them as a mate and was jumping up on them and trying to push them down from the back of the neck (I am very naive when it comes to the canine mating ritual so please excuse me!!!lol) Do you think this could be the case? I just dont want him to be out and see another dog and do the same again so he does need to get used to other dogs. Also there are a lot that live around by us.
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Post by Rowan on Jan 15, 2005 21:39:52 GMT -5
I think everyone has said excellently all that is to be said to make your decission.
Think it was Bataglilla who wrote about what we humans consider playing. That the interaction is learning and practicing defensive/offensive moves and skills of fighting. Is something to think about when you watch them interact in ""playing"" look at the moves, up over the back of the neck, lifing front and rear legs, bitting fur on the back, and butt, pulling, taking things from each other, chasing and being chased. All these behaviors are learning skills, they are gaining confidence in useing them in a non threating environment. Depending on the partner they are "palying with" it may be mutual of who is the winner and who is the looser during these games and visa versa. Batagllia is against allowing pups, dogs to interact in this type of activities, he also doesnt' like playing tug a war as a game for dogs if you can understand how it can fit into learning negative skills when used incorrectly. The reality of playing is something to keep in mind and be prepared to step in if one or the other dogs become to determined to be the winner.
Dogs are forever changing as they mature and eventually grow old. What they do today may not be something they want in the future and even near future. It is not natural for an adult to harm a pup, no matter what their sex is. I know there are cases where pups get mauled by adults and I take that to heart for being true. But my experience has been a young pup is met with tolerence and not a threat. The same pup reaching maturity is not viewed the same way. So your current situation may seem to suddenly change. And you must be prepared to step in and set boundries before behavioral escullation over time is developed and not just stand in shock when a scuffle between too long term playmates suddenly breaks out.
It is great you ahave close friends to interact with, that situation is much better then strangers on the street or at the park...
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Post by ladyarya on Feb 17, 2005 3:05:07 GMT -5
One side is those who believe in socializing and with that comes dog parks, setting up dog playtime ect ect...thier dog's personality is the "lets have fun, who cares who's in charge?" type. I'm not sure that is necessarily true. I take my kids to dog parks. They need to run and I really don't have the room for them to run here (apartment life ) They run, they chase, they get chased, they roll around, they have a blast... but they know I'm the one in charge. They come back to check in with me... and I could be standing at the opposite end of the park saying "Karma/Buddha let's go" and they hightail it over to me and sit at my feet. I've never had a problem with them not caring that I'm in charge at a park. I think it all comes down to how your dogs have been trained.
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Post by ixtlan on Feb 17, 2005 16:42:03 GMT -5
I think you're right. The problem comes from how others may not have done the job of training their dog. I take my dog to the dog park. I have some misgivings though. I feel most of the dogs get alot of exercise and energy out so they can come home and be mellow. I also see dogs being tormented and their owners ignoring it. ( out of ignorance I expect). I try to be very careful there but the risks may not be worth it. I protect my dog there and make sure he isn't harassing other dogs. Not always easy. I carry pepper spray and a staff. I have broken up other dog fights so I know it is a real danger. Another thing is that people bring young or timid dogs to the park to socialize them. Not good from my standpoint. If these dogs are harassed or bitten then you have fear agression to deal with and that ain't pretty. Most dogs parks seem somewhat dangerous to me. My dog is pretty strong and very fast. He's good at taking care of himself but I will come to his rescue whenever he lets me know he needs it. You have well trained dogs. If they were all like that there would be few problems at the parks. And I think dogs like the company of their own kind. Not all dogs though. It's a tough call and I haven't made up my mind about it but I suspect the no dog park folks have a strong point. I work and my dog has to spend a certain amount of time alone. The dog park helps with him being stimulated and he really seems to like it. But as time goes on, ( he's 1+1/2) he seems to prefer my company. Maybe it's because I think he's soooo cool, that I can't stop loving him up. ;D
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Post by ladyarya on Feb 17, 2005 17:04:24 GMT -5
You're right and do see the point of no dog parks. I think I also got lucky because the people at my park are very into their dogs and are right on top of them if there's even a hint in the general direction of a spat. I actually just posted pics of my dogs at the park in the general forum, and you can see the dogs there just run and play. They do wrestle occasionally (and theres a few pics of that too), but nothing that isn't play - tails wagging and all.
But then, I also took the time to train my dogs with the dog park distraction before they were ever allowed inside the gate. (Stood outside the fence with them on leashes to make sure they paid attention to me first and foremost.) But they were good at listening before I did that, so I wasn't too worried. I just did it to double check Karma since I know she gets distracted easily.
IMO, I think it comes down to training, whether or not the dog likes to be around other dogs (mine LOVE it, but I know some that don't), and picking a park that has good owners - and sometimes that comes down to what town the park is located in.. I did a walk through of the park to see what the people were like with their dogs before I ever brought my dogs in.
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Post by ixtlan on Feb 18, 2005 0:07:22 GMT -5
Sounds like you really have your act together here. Actually I would consider the dog park near my home one of the good ones. Still I never know who will be there when I show up. Everything from Pits to St Bernards. I helped break up a fight this St Bernard was in. He has been comming there for a long time. It happened in a flash at the entrance gate. His owner just stood there frozen. The other dog was white and I could see blood on him and it wasn't slowing. Everyone was just watching or hollering and it didn't look pretty for a second. I just moved to the side of the St Bernard and yelled OUT in his ear ready to run for my life. It stopped the action but it could have easily not worked. Everyone sort of laughed it off except the owner of the bloodied dog. They haven't been back that I have seen. I tell you it happens quick and it can be dogs that have always behaved. I have never seen this St. Bernard act that way since. I would suggest at least carrying pepper spray. And of course its easy to get talking to someone and forget your doggie for awhile. I'm not trying to say don't go. You have your act together. Just don't completely let your guard down and have fun. I am aways sooo impressed when someone like you shows up at the park. A breath of fresh air. ;D
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Post by Richard on Feb 18, 2005 9:35:59 GMT -5
I think I also got lucky because the people at my park are very into their dogs and are right on top of them if there's even a hint in the general direction of a spat. That is exactly my point...unless you know the rest of the regulars at the park, there isn't an issue. The best part is that you have a solid recall with your dogs and they know when you call, they'll come asap! You also noted that you went and checked out the park beforehand ...another good point!! That is the bottom line..everyone(or almost everyone, the ones that don't stick out) in the park you visit is in tune with thier dogs, surroundings and each other...those are the parks that work the way they were intended to! -Richard
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