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Post by masha on Oct 18, 2004 14:40:15 GMT -5
OK, here I am posting in the aggresion forum again... I have a problem that I realy dont know what to do about. Before I get to my specific problem, I'd like to just describe what Anastasia is like - maybe that way some of you could give me some insight as to why she is behaving like this. Firstly, she's always been a nippy pup. I took lots of advice about this, and by now (16 months old) I've pretty much dealt with this, if not perfectly. She used to try to bite me constatnly. To play, or hold me with her, and she would also bite if she felt that I was invading her body space: Not a nasty bite, but a definite teeth on skin thing. We worked a lot on this. I groom her every day, do all the things I'm told to do. These days, she will try to bite me if I hold her too tight or pick her up - or, at least, she will growl and make biting motions in my direction. She still tries it on ocasionaly, making faces at me when I down her, trying to play growly games with the leash if I'm not paying attention to her. She is easy with other dogs - but can become growly if a dog is very submissive. She puts her ears forward, and will run after it, but never bites, snarls, never tries to knock it over: mostly acts just like she does when playing, but growls and barks. If another dog is too boisterous with her, she will snarl at them and put her ears back, hair up, will even bite the air in front of them, making them back down - but then leaves it at that. I had a discussion about the whole off leash interaction thing in another thread and since then I'm very careful about her interacting with other dogs, and have had no problems in that area, since then. She submits to other dogs easily. She is a bit timid, but not terribly so. OK, thats out of the way. Now for my problem. She freaks out if a stranger tries to handle her too much. Just touching paws, ears, mouth, looking at teeth is OK. But hold her round the ribs and she's not friendly about it. I've been dealing with this since she is a puppy, and she has been carefully handled by many people, usualy with no problem But at the vet, I have to put a muzzle on her and hold her pretty tight, while she has a hissy fit - and the moment the muzzle comes off, she is all happy puppy again and goes and loves and kisses the vet. Here comes the problem. I ve been showing her at dog shows, mostly because its the ideal way of dealing with this problem. She has to stand still and let me handle her, placing her legs just so, touching her tummy etc. Yesterday at the show, she growled at the judge when she started feeling her body, telling her BACK OFF LADY. Of course, the lady did not, and a there was a definite snaaaarl - snapp! :-[And the judge snapped at me "You'll have to do something about that!" I'm a bit at the end of my tether about this. What more can I do? Is it just the way she is, having this issue about being grabbed and poked by a stranger? I'd actually love to have an excuse not to show her any more, but possibly I'm just chickening out and should deal with the problem? Is it possible to change this?
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Post by Rowan on Oct 18, 2004 21:56:48 GMT -5
I can give a suggestion about the muzzle. When Darien was going to do some muzzle work the guy I was working with told me to get him use to the muzzle so it wouldn't be a distraction for him during training. So I incorporated the muzzle into everything Darien enjoyed doing, riding in the car going for walks,, he loves playing with the industructable ball the big 10" like pushing it around using the muzzle for that was excellent. So he enjoyed wearing the muzzle within a week before our next training session.
After Dariens accident being attacked by another dog in class when he was a puppy, he was really messed up didn't want people to look at him or interact with him directly was just a dog I had to keep on command constantly no matter what we were doing he had to be given a job to do, so he would not act out on his own. For him it was regaining confidence that nothing bad would happen to him and I for a very long time instructed people whom we met that he was in training to simply ignore him it was a sensitive stage for him.. But I could not progress in my root behavior training in an uncontroled environment... I had to find a way to enforce control of the environment even when we were out in public...
think all pups start out mouthy at first when they learn they have a mouth, they investigate bitting things and each other. Major's breeders begged me to come and get him when he was only 7 weeks old he was a terror to the litter running around grabbing a pup as he ran dragging the poor screaming pup by his mouth across the floor letting go of that one, still running and grabbing the next one he passed the breeders has let him intensify this skill by not intervineing!!!!!. He was really a mouthy pup. He didn't want to play ball, he would wait until Darien 1 year older then he was would go get the ball and just wait until Darien would return and loung on to Dariens neck while Darien never lost his stride bringing the ball back with little Major being dragged along with him..
Major bit the living daylights out of me when I first got him... The puppy yipping from me only intensified his behavior, learned behavior from his litter mates that he was winning ... I found peanut butter rewards did wonders it kept him mouth occupied so he could be praised for calm behaivors really sticks to the roof of their mouth, you can stick it at head level on the wall or the fridge too. We are teaching classical body mechanics in doing this. The other is (gently) pushing the nose down during close holding interaction.. just right at the top of the muzzle gently push the nose down towards the chest (they can't bit in that position) Just like a horse that rears up they put that strap attached to it's chest can't raise it's head, can't rear up.... Works well on a pup too.
I like this method because it is applied calmly and gently, it does not aggravate a pup that is acting out using it's mouth as expression. It does not create excitment or put a pup into fight mode or teach a pup to avoid or aggress at the hands because they are something that hurts like slapping grabbing, and having a fist shoved up their throat does...
Am sure she has learned by doing so people withdraw so the pup is use to winning thus becomeing stronger when the first attempt was not successful because she is use to winning the pup will not back down. She hasn't learned that she can't win.
I don't give in in my approach, call it patience or call it anal what ever, I will last longer then the dog any day of the year until I get what I want I will never give in. Using positive methods I can last forever and always last longer then the dog. Dog learns that he can't win and we can move on. LOL the dog gets tired of attempting a behavior that doesn't win.
Since there is so many areas you would like to change I would start with the root behavior, which is being mouthy and continue to work on one on one interaction as you are already doing it.. Then you can design a plan to introduce new stimulas with low levels of distraction to continue the application of that first skill.
Controling or changing the root behavior will make the difference for all that will follow....Don't settle for anything else but perfection before you move on...
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Post by sibemom on Oct 19, 2004 7:08:43 GMT -5
It is interesting that this thread would come up now since my problem is similar. Not to hijack yours but to offer some very good comments on using the muzzle. My Sibe is and always has been a very reactive dog. He too as a young pup was a nipper. Because my youngest child is only going to be 4 I had to find someway to keep him safe while still being able to play with his puppy. That is where the cage muzzle came in. I introduced it to him in a such a way that he did not feel it was a punishment. Using lots of praise and treats everytime I put it on him, untill he would stick his head in on his own tail wagging. I have similar problems with Blade he does not like being touched in cetain ways and never has liked being groomed. We work on this daily just like yourself and slowley we are getting somewhere. He is not that much older than your dog, he will be 2 in February. I do believe as Rowan said you must win when changeing the root behavior. I have recently had to start using the muzzle again because he is going through some WEIRD changes in attitude towards my young son. Saftey is the utmost importance in my home, and I too never let the dog win. I believe that these types of behaviors are just part of who the dog is, and maybe you cannot get rid of them but you certainly can manage them and teach them to accept and build a level of tolerance to the very things they do not like. It is tough but I think with time and patients, and no Rowan I don't think you are anal, you just are looking at it from a level of common sense ;D In situations where dogs are showing signs of aggresion to people, and in our case even though it's not really aggresion, I have to be careful on how I correct it, so I do not make my dog think that everytime he interacts with my son, he is going to get a correction which causes him discomfort, that could make things worse. I like my dogs to want to comply willingly and not because I am standing there with a leash and prong collar even though I am ready to use it if I have too. I still find that the best way to get dogs to accept strangers etc... is by having that person give them treats. Maybe in a sense that's kind of giving in, but of course you must be ready to jump in if the dog reacts badly. If I know my dog has issues with certain stimulas, touching, grooming etc... then I expose them even more to it, but in way so that they think their compliance was their idea. I am not a big advocate of using treats for training unless I find it is the only way to get the reactions that I want. In this case I would buy a truck load, and keep working with your dog. Have willing neighbors come over and help you, and I would buy a cage muzzle if you do not all ready own one and use it during these training sessions. Preventing the bite is winning the battle 50% and working on the undesired behaviors is the other. Believe me I know exactly where you are at right now
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Post by masha on Oct 19, 2004 14:37:42 GMT -5
Thanks guys - I feel up to the challenge once more! Rowan, Ive tried your suggestion of gently pushing down on her nose when she gets nippy and so far its worked amazingly well. As you say, its a non aggressive thing so she does not interpret it as play behaviour. Now I can hold her firmly around the ribs, pick up all her paws, handle her tail, feel her ears, and she waits it out patiently. Lets see if it lasts. I see that I was not expressing myself well - I dont have a problem putting a muzzle on her at all. Its only when the vet is examining her that I have a problem. Its actually one of my triumphs: when she was small, she used to carry on like a wild thing when she saw her leash, jumping and howling. I ignored her and only put the leash on when she was sitting quietly. She learnt that so quickly! Now when I touch the leash she rushes over and plants her bum on the ground. Somehow this has carried over into putting on a muzzle - she points her nose up in the air so I can slip it on easily, even is she's stressed out. So there is hope! Thanks again for the encouragement
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Post by sibemom on Oct 19, 2004 15:09:13 GMT -5
I am glad your dog accepts the muzzle with no hassle that in itself can be a big help. I know she is not doing this behavior to you, but I assume you are looking for her to stop it especially with the show judge ;D You can do several excersises carefully with the muzzle in place and I bet she is doing these things because either she is afraid or it's just her natural protection instinct of you and herself. Building tolerance is hard esspecially if the dog has an adverse reaction to the very things you are trying to de sensitize them too. I know you will work hard at getting a handle on it ;D. Management is the key. Although I still don't believe you can get rid of the behavior you can learn and teach her a way to deal with the things that seem to cause these reactions. ;D
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Post by Rowan on Oct 19, 2004 19:44:37 GMT -5
Excellent Masha I am glad it is having a positive effect and I know what you mean in hopeing it last so many determined pups learn so quickly to get around an approach.. That is why I say I can last longer then the dog, Major would move his head out from under my hand and come back at me, but I just kept coming back each time too, gently dropping his nose and release when he submitted,, really some times feels a battle of the wills in a strong pup lol.. But I will have the last say so.. so just keep it coming sweetie I can do this all day too lol... I can't take credit for the drop muzzle approach I watch my bitches do this all the time with older pups generation after generation. And it is effective for barking too lol I forgot about that, been so long and all my terror pups have all grown up to perfect adults . And interesting one that I am working on now is dropping the tail on an aggressive dog it is so amazing what happens to a dog that is in negative posturing to other dogs it's a domino effect,, I drop the tail between the dogs legs they can't hold the aggressive motivation total submission of the behaivor instantly,, they tire very quickly being put into that position in front of other dogs and do not go back into posturing because what happens to them when they do, they get the automatic dropping of their tails, turns them from the aggressor to the coward and that really seems to bother them (( so far in the ones I have worked with it is also giving positive results)) lol humble pie approach lol.. only flat tail dogs, have not tried this with any breeds that have naturally upright tail. but it is cool... Please if anyone wants to try this let me know the effects.... Good luck to you Masha let us know how your progressing....
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Post by masha on Oct 21, 2004 6:11:59 GMT -5
Funny how these things happen - but just on the same day I was first trying this drop muzzle thing, I saw a documentary on " dogs at War" in which they showed how the Amrican army was using dogs in the pacific war (WWII). They needed to train the dogs not to bark when they spot something on patrol. And geuss how they did it? Softly press down on the dogs muzzle when it starts barking!
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Post by grrltrouble on Oct 22, 2004 18:44:12 GMT -5
Rowan, what do you mean dropping the tail? Just pushing it down? Would that be appropriate for a dog with fear based aggression? Or would it make him feel even more powerless? Interesting how emotions can affect the body and the body can affect emotions.
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Post by Rowan on Oct 22, 2004 20:31:00 GMT -5
Rowan, what do you mean dropping the tail? Just pushing it down? Would that be appropriate for a dog with fear based aggression? Or would it make him feel even more powerless? Interesting how emotions can affect the body and the body can affect emotions. just a smooth over the hind quarters to swoop the tail lower just like you would smooth the hair on their back when it is standing up, nothing abrubtly, gently and slowly (just a matter of fact as to say, no huge event it just happened). I think Fear is always a strong base in any aggressive behavior especially when a dog is on neutural ground, lacking training experience how to conduct themselves or continuing a learn behavior they have been allowed to get away with. I would take this idea on a case by case for each individual dog. Obviously a dog that is trembling and peeing on them selves needs to be taken down to a lower stimulas environment. Main focus in training with a dog that is acting out is the lost of focus, can;t redirect the dog to learn if you do not have their attention. It is creating a hesitant to act out, a pause. It is really interesting because a dog that is stuck in a pattern of acting out is very predictable. When we started using the drop tail you can physically see them about to act out then they stop themselves look at their owners which the owners can respond with heal or sit or anything in attempt to learn a different behavior pattern. The dogs that I am working with their owners were previously instructed to use leash correction and the dogs were getting worse (application of an approach will make or break your results so I don't know how it was being applied) I just started the dogs off using distance (low stimulas) and just rebuilding from there...
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Post by masha on Oct 23, 2004 2:18:50 GMT -5
OK - We went to a show again last night and she was very difficult again. But I have now decided: No more shows (what a relief) because its actualy a realy inapropriate way to get her to accept a stranger handling her.
Last night the judge was extremely rude - he actually pushed me away from my dog, scolded me, grabbed her head quite roughly and tried to force her jaws apart. I was quite pleased when she snarled at him. No bite, though.. Thats actualy part of the problem, that I can sort of see why she does this, it seems rational to me. I'd also snarl at a stranger marching up to me and trying to put his hands in my mouth and feeling my behind.
I'm going to work at this gradualy with people who arent intimidated by her, but not rough with her either.
No more SHOWS what a PLEASURE. Id rather go to obedience competitions.
Oh, and last thing - she might be coming on heat in a while. Probably making her antsy, having PMT. But thats the subject of another thread...
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Post by Willow on Oct 23, 2004 12:14:36 GMT -5
Last night the judge was extremely rude - he actually pushed me away from my dog, scolded me, grabbed her head quite roughly and tried to force her jaws apart. I was quite pleased when she snarled at him. No bite, though.. Thats actualy part of the problem, that I can sort of see why she does this, it seems rational to me. I'd also snarl at a stranger marching up to me and trying to put his hands in my mouth and feeling my behind. I'm glad you have decided not to show her again. This behavior is unacceptable in any instance, but especially in a show ring! If I was a judge I would react the same way to a snarling/biting dog! They should not be shown. Period. IMO your attitude has a lot to do with her reaction.
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Post by masha on Oct 23, 2004 14:29:11 GMT -5
Oh - well - I can certainly see why you would think so, from reading this thread - And possibly you are right? But actualy, I only felt this way after the whole thing was over so its unlikely. But anyway, I think you are right about her not belonging in a show ring. I need to work this thing out with her.
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Post by Aussienot on Oct 23, 2004 19:15:09 GMT -5
If you are planning to work on this from an obedience context, one of the ways we have dealt with this to teach dogs with a high fight or defense drive the Stand for Exam is to use a feather duster for the actual exam.
Rather than running hands over her problem areas ( the back and rib) brush with a feather duster. It allows the examiner to stay just a little out of the way. And it's a good intermediate step to the intrusive handling exam.
I'd introduce the duster in a less destractive setting first. Teach her to accept it at home before you bring it out in class.
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