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Post by doxiegal1960 on Aug 21, 2004 23:36:21 GMT -5
I have a yellow lab who is 20 months old. He was purchased as sort of a therapy dog as a puppy for a very depressed 13 yr old. He did work miracles for her. She took him to petsmart puppy training classes and he was the top puppy, always first to learn and obey commands. We were thinking about putting him in agility because he loves to jump. When he was about 7 months old we had him in a basic class and he lunged at a bulldog. The trainer had us put him in time out and she also did an alpha roll with him.
Training classes there were not working, the agression continued and gradually got worse. I looked for a trainer that would deal with an agressive dog. Finding none in my area, I started reading books....everything I could get from Patricia Mcconnell, Jean Donaldson, Pat Miller. I talked to one person who advertised himself as the dog whisperer. He wanted to take Kobe for 6 months, wouldn't let me see him for awhile, and charge me 900 a month. I just had a bad feeling about him.
I have been working multi faceted with Kobe. I involked the NILIF program, I started doing tellington t-touch, and I finally found a trainer in my area. Kobe was taking a drug that was wrong, it is for obsession/compulsion, and I changed vets and switched him to prozac. We discovered he is resource guarding my daughter, thats a big part of the agression. So the trainer has my daughter leave the room if his nonsense continues. And he also uses a citranella collar. If he lunges he gets a warning beep, if he continues he get a spray. He is doing much better.
He shares a yard outside with a golden retriever female and they are best buddies. But if she comes inside the house at the same time as him he lunges at her. Once we figured out he was guarding his prize posession, my daughter, we were able to turn that around. He is still onleash when they come in. He still gives her occasional dirty looks. But he is no longer trying to tear her apart the minute he sees her inside.
I got ripped apart on another board because I mentioned using that citranella collar. But its either get this under control or put the dog down. As far as I am concerned this dog saved my daughters life. He gave her a purpose for living. He drew her out of a very dark hole. If this collar is part of the solution to save his life, then so be it. It is not left on all the time, only used during training sessions with the trainer present.
So, thats our story. Will he ever get over the aggression completely? Maybe not. I think I would be a fool to say he would. But I hope to eliminate as much of it as we possibly can. We have come a long way in the past 6 weeks. And we still have a long way to go.
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Post by ripley on Aug 22, 2004 1:52:39 GMT -5
Sounds like you're doing a great job with him. As for the citronella collar.. If it works for him, why not? I don't know much about those collars, what's the deal that makes people so opposed to them?
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Post by sibemom on Aug 22, 2004 3:00:18 GMT -5
I guess the thing about that collar is that for alot of dogs they just do not work and they are very expensive, and there are other things that can be done that could be more effective. If it's working for him then keep using it. Is he aggresive to people or just other dogs? From what you have said it sounds like you are making progress and this is going to be a management issue with him. Dog on Dog aggresion and owner gaurding are tricky but they can be handled. I don't feel that this behavior ever goes away completely. but with consistant training and using the NILIF program you can get a handle on it. Unless the dog has had major aggresion issues to humans I would never even think of putting him down especially because of what he has done for your daughter. There are so many ways to handle him, keep working at it, and I am glad that you found a trainer who can help. They did an Alpha roll on him at PETSMART that sounds like a first considering that they primarily train PP. I give you lots of credit for trying to solve the issues with this dog, and understand why you are. If an animal made that much difference in my childs life I would do ANYTHING to fix the problem. ;D
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Post by Willow on Aug 22, 2004 7:25:01 GMT -5
I commend you for trying so hard with this dog.
Why was Kobe put on the drugs? Was he showing signs of aggression before or after being put on the first drug?
Have you been able to check into other dogs in his lineage to see if any other's are aggressive?
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Post by Richard on Aug 22, 2004 7:28:07 GMT -5
RG wrote:
It's the fact you're using a chemical to stimulate the dog into compliance....these collars are also used with barky dogs who don't know when to stop barking.
doxiegal,
I, like Ann and Loey, commend you for your work to date with your dog. I had a problem with my male GSD being dog aggressive and like you, took steps to rectify the situation.
We were able to find a trainer that handled GSDs and those with dog aggression issues. Our path included NILIF, prong collar for training and a strong alpha pack mentality in our home and when we are dealing with Rocky. Through our training, he just knows know that it isn't worth his time to aggress towards another dog and life is good for us. How is he when your daughter has him out for walks? I'm thinking you don't go near dog parks (which is good regardless..sorry just my opinion) either.
As you said, will he ever be over the aggression? No, you will, as you've noted, just manage it. How does he react to you when you correct him?
Part of this whole scenario is the fact that life with your daughters Lab is not the usual one....You may understand what is required out of him but he may not...with the work you've done so far, he will learn that he has a place in your family and eventually know that aggressing towards other dogs isn't a good idea.
Please keep us posted.
-Richard
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Post by doxiegal1960 on Aug 22, 2004 9:01:19 GMT -5
I did find out a few months ago that the mom had aggression issues, hindsite is 20/20, I did not ask any questions that should have been asked before I got him.
Initially this started out to be just dog-dog aggression. Then when I brought in that idiot who called himself the dog whisperer he told me when he came to observe Kobe I was to keep quiet and not say or do anything regardless of what Kobe did. A strange man walking into the house, of course Kobe barked. When he looked at me and I did not respond then he growled. When I still did not respond he lunged at the guy. Ever since then we have had problems with people, some people he is fine with and some people he lunges at.
As for the medication, we put him on one last april to try and help calm him down. But the stuff my vet put him on was only for compulsive disorders, and it was not making a bit of difference. I took him to a different vet, who actually was the one that connected me with my trainer. She immediately switched him to prozac. We could not even get him into her office, because he was lunging at dogs before we got near the door. We had to wait until the office cleared and it was safe to bring him through. The idea is to use the prozac to calm him while at the same time teach him a different way of responding.
At first when we tried to correct him when he was in a lunging episode he totally ignored us, he was so focused on getting the other dog he would never even hear us. Now I can get him to look at me instead of the other dog and avoid most confrontations. He has never shown any aggression to any of us, his family. Its all about outsiders and strange dogs.
I had joined the AGBEH yahoo group, and the moderator was very upset because the citranella collar is not in her view a positive training method. I don't know what lies ahead for our training tools. But I do know that when we are in the training center and using that collar it is working. When she gives him the warning beep you can immediately see him back down.
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Post by Iluvmypup on Aug 22, 2004 16:13:50 GMT -5
This is a tricky situation that CAN'T be figured out, over the internet. You'll get all kinds of opposing veiws...some people will say jerk him with a prong collar, others will say "YES use the citranella collar, others will say ignore his bad behaviour (which of course isn't right in this situation), and all kinds of other opinions.
You need to find yourself a top notch animal behaviourist. Remember, many people can CLAIM to be one, but aren't necessarily. It will take some research on your part to find a good one. Behaviourist are different then trainers...they'll go to your home, see your dog in his familiar settings, and ask you questions to see if anything has changed, whats causing this aggressive behaviour and will teach you and your family how to change this.
If you get a behaviourist that you feel you can trust, go with it. Don't try what he recommended for one day and try something else the next becuase it 'isn't working'. Training takes time, but you'll see great results if you stick with a GOOD plan.
After the dog has been evaluated by a behaviourist, and you've gotten the situation under control, then bring him to training classes. A lot of trainers don't deal with aggressive dogs so don't know how to react when they see one. They'll just flip your dog into an alpha roll, guessing it will fix matters. The alpha roll is NOT good for a dog who is becoming worse in aggression, as it makes them just want to fight more, and makes the whole situation seem worse then it originally was.
Good luck!! Aggressive dogs can be tricky to deal with, but with time, training, and consistency, you CAN overcome this with your dog.
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Post by amyjo on Aug 22, 2004 17:33:18 GMT -5
Okay - I wouldn't have gone with the citronella but you did and it is working - so I say "yay".
I was wondering if your daughter is implementing the NILIF with him or just you. I was also wondering if you can describe your version of NILIF to us - because sometimes people say they are doing it - but when we question them further - they aren't.
I will throw a couple of other things out there for you to think about because I think you should know about all the options - so that you can keep researching.
1. Raw diet...get those carbs and preservatives out of his diet. Turkey is a good choice because it has tryptophan which has a calming effect.
2. Consider homeopathic treatment for vaccinosis. I don't really know much about this - but there are folks on the board who swear by it.
3. An e-collar. I wouldn't dream of trying to handle an aggressive dog with out one. an e-collar is an awesome choice because the corrections it delivers can be very very very mild - so you are not escalating aggression when you give corrections...there is something about the "texture" of an e-collar correction that really gets a dogs attention - even when it is on the lowest setting. Please let us know - if you want to research any of these options and we can point you in the right direction.
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Post by doxiegal1960 on Aug 22, 2004 21:12:20 GMT -5
Regarding the NILIF, he is not allowed on furniture any more. He has to sit before he gets his food, before we go through a gate or door, before he can have a toy to play with. If he shows agression towards the golden the toys go away. I don't reach out and pet him without making him sit first. If we are out long distance, like the 2 hr drive to do t-touch and we get something to eat, I will ask for a plain burger for him but he waits until we have eaten every bite before he gets his. He is on authority large breed dog food, I won't touch any of the grocery store brands. He prefers chicken flavor, will not touch the lamb and rice. I think my daughter might let him by when I am not there to watch, like when she has him alone in her bedroom she lets him on the bed with her. I am not sure how to go about trying the turkey diet, I had a recipe I used for my dachshunds for a little bit that was rice and chicken but I was never sure how much to give them, and I gave up and went back to the nutro skin formula for them.
Can anyone tell me how to post a picture of Kobe?
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Post by doxiegal1960 on Aug 23, 2004 21:27:54 GMT -5
Excellent training session today! We met at the vets office. The vet could not believe it is the same dog, lol.
The only time he growled was when a worker kept staring at him through a glass window in the exam room, and you couldn't really blame him, any dog could interpret a stare as a threat. He had the citranella collar on just in case but never had to use it. We used only a gentle leader and his regular collar.
We have two more private lessons left and then we are going to start going to a small class situation. I will tell you what, I am so thankful that I got connected with Barbera Degroot, in the past 6 weeks she has made such a difference in Kobe.
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Post by Iluvmypup on Aug 24, 2004 11:49:57 GMT -5
I'm glad things are working out! And I'm glad you found a trainer who is working with you and your dog. Is she a behaviourist or a trainer? Thats smart to do private classes right now...it will give you a good base for when you start the group classes. Good luck, and keep up the hard work!
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