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Post by xavierandrea on Jul 27, 2004 6:09:41 GMT -5
I'm looking for advice on how to handle my female Rotties. Here is a little back ground on my family. I have 3 Rotties; Patti-5 yrs female not spayed adopted 2 yrs ago from a private citizen, Free-3yrs in Dec.female spayed got from breeder in Ma., Asim-2yrs in Oct male not neutered got from breeder in Hungry. Free & Patti had a few growls at each other during their 1st few months together nothing that would make me worry. When Asim came home still no issues. The 1st year together they were by each others side. I could walk them together feed them the same time, they were inseperable. Until about a year ago. They got into their 1st heated fight. Then again no problems until recently. In which they have fought so bad that my son who is 10 years old got caught in the middle and got hurt. Both girls are not backing down from one another. They just need to see the other through the corner of their eyes and start growling like mad and wanting to be let loose to get to the other. Patti does not like for any one of us to pet the others. She will push the others away when they come next to us to be petted. I know that some of the issues that the girls have is that Asim is unaltered and Patti feels the need to be the "Queen B", but Free is not seeing it Patti's way. I was also reading here on this forum that some dogs are over protective of there "humans". I recalled every fight and it has all the same similarities. My son calls upon 1 of the dogs who would then come running to him, during the same time the dog that is called upon is moving towards my son the other will attack. My question is, does the dog who is attacking think that the 1 who is coming over will hurt my son and they feel the need to protect him? I have tried everything. I even have a vet appointment to have Patti PTS since she is the most "dog aggressive" out of all of them. I do not see myself going through with this appointment. I have Patti & Free both seperate from one another. Free is currently inside the home while Patti is on the front porch at night (which is inclosed, heated and everything) and durring the day I have her in the outdoor kennel ( protected from the weather, roof,dog house and kiddie pool). Patti loves to be outside but it kills me to know that she and Free can not get along. I want to take her to the vet and see if there are any meds that can be given to her to calm her or is she beyond help? I do not want to have her PTS. Some people say she is beyond help but I do not beleive that. Any suggestions?
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Post by amyjo on Jul 27, 2004 8:23:06 GMT -5
I have lots of suggestions First of all - spay and neuter the two that are unaltered. This will help eliminate any "sexual tension" in the home. Second - read the articles and implement the principles of NILIF with ALL of the dogs not just Patti. I don't think you really have a problem with dog aggression - I think you have a problem with pack rank and leadership. Patti and Free can't seem to work things out (probably same size, speed, strength and levels of fight and rank drive)... The reason you didn't have problems before is because Free was not socially mature - now she is and she is a threat to Patti's position. You need to give the dogs subtle cues that free is beneath Patti in rank order...and that your son is not a possession to be guarded or fought over. So when you feed - the male is fed first, then Patti then Free. Same thing when you give attention, leash them up for walks or let them through a door. If your dogs don't all have solid down/stays and sit/stays then you need to really work on this...so that you can do things for one dog at a time like explained above. It is very smart to keep the girls seperate when you aren't working with them until you get a handle on this. Under your supervision you can allow your son to feed the dogs and do leash work with them (once you have established your authority)...that will elevate him above the postion of "possession". Finally...you may have to look at rehoming one of the females. This is a situation that can never really be cured only managed. It is likely the situation causing the problem and not really the dogs.
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Post by Aussienot on Jul 27, 2004 14:35:22 GMT -5
Why did you go directly to thinking about PTS with a dog you've owned for two years instead of exploring training?
Dog to dog aggression was anticipatable - two same sex dogs often have rank problems. This problem can be managed, just curious if there are other issues with Patti, like people aggression?
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Post by xavierandrea on Jul 28, 2004 5:40:46 GMT -5
I was planning on rehoming Patti after this last fight because I am expecting my 2nd child in less than 5 weeks. I felt that I have tried everything in regards of her and Free getting along. I did not want to place my baby in harms way.I called animal control and explained the situation and that during the last fight between the girls that my 10 yr old son got bitten and had to receive stiches. Animal control said that there was no way they could put her in a shelter and adopt her out knowing that she had bitten a human. I explained that this happend during a fight but they said she was too "dog aggressive" and I would need to have her PTS. That is why I am here on this forum asking for advice. Patti has no human aggression what so ever. She is actually the friendliest out of all the dogs. She is very mellow and calm and that is why I want to explore all methods of training, help and advice for her. I feel that Patti deserves a chance.
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HazelNutMeg
Trained
We Make a Hell of a Team!
Posts: 335
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Post by HazelNutMeg on Jul 28, 2004 12:44:05 GMT -5
I think you've been given a lot of great advice here! I took the advice given to me with my "out of control dog" and he has improved by leaps and bounds by using a prong collar and the NILIF method and I wouldn't have gone a different rout with him now! There were the occiasional times I came back crying for more help But the people here have a LOT of patients and are deffently here to help So try out what has been suggested! Just make sure you STICK TO IT! ;D And I really hope you find a sollution! Congrats on the new baby comming! And since so soon at this "sudden" problem, that isn't too much fun is it? Maybe you could live with keeping the girls seperate for until you're ready to take on training the dogs out of this problem? I know there are some people who have dogs that don't get along who are constantly seperate and they seem to be fine with it, so I'm sure a bit longer wouldn't be too bad... If you do decide to rehome the dog, you know her better than Animal Control, and they are busy as it is so I would suggest doing it on your own. Just put her in a home with no other dogs, and make sure the new owners know the situation and WHY she is being rehomed. And may I ask why two of your dogs are unaltered? Do you show or breed? Because I'm sure altering your one girl for sure would probably make some changes in the fighting.
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Post by xavierandrea on Jul 28, 2004 12:59:15 GMT -5
Asim is not neutered because we are working with a breeder/trainer/handler to show him. Patti was not spayed because,,,,, long story- We had both girls scheduled for the spay. Free was spayed 1st. She was very, very sick after the surgery. She got infections on top of infections. She didn' t eat for at least a week and a half. She lost all control of her bladder. She vomitted from the meds. Since Free was so sick I didn't want Patti to go through the same thing so I cancelled the appointment. Which I am deeply regretting now .
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HazelNutMeg
Trained
We Make a Hell of a Team!
Posts: 335
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Post by HazelNutMeg on Jul 28, 2004 13:53:20 GMT -5
Awe, poor girl! So why not try spaying Patti now? Just because Free had a bad exprience from it doesn't mean the same for Patti I've had female dogs and known others who have never experienced that, so it's probably pretty rare, and I'm sure there was some reason for Free's reaction I would deffently try everything first if I were you before making a full dicision on rehoming. I read some of your post on Dogo about the same situation, and it really sounds like you love your dogs and dont' want to part with them, but will if necisary. So if you can (depending on the new arrival and such ) try getting her spayed, and what Amyjo has suggested for you here! ;D
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Post by Brooke on Jul 28, 2004 21:21:26 GMT -5
See I felt based on what was presented earlier it was a dominance issue too. I have to say I completely agree with Amyjo. Dogs are normally " dog aggressive" because of lack of socialization OR because they had been tramatically attacked in the past. Its not something that ...just happens. Dominance however...just happens. It's from a lack of clearly defined rules and regulations in the home and not enough leadership. They basically are working it out but sometimes when they aren't quite getting it themselves thats where you have to step in and make the decisions yourself on what goes on. This is just one of those breeds that you have to raise with firm leadership or they will take over. It doesn't mean they are bad breeds but that is just their tendencies and they need to be handled a bit different than the regular pet. They were bred initially for security and herding and that is something that can come somewhat naturally in some ways but needs to be properly managed and trained or it gets out of control. Don't get me wrong... I'm not saying you don't train your dogs. There are just different types of training for different things. If I read back correctly you aren't familiar with NILIF which is pretty much a requirement of owning this type of temperament dog. Especially if they are well bred. Dogs also learn in different ways just as humans do so you may also have to consider changing the style which you train if you are finding what you are doing isn't getting your far. Doesn't mean it's incorrect...just means the dog is requiring a bit more learning wise. NILIFHardcore NILIFdominanceI found this one too which may be helpful... This was the lady with the rottie and dominance issues. I'll see if I can't dig up some more of her threads. Looking for information
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Post by xavierandrea on Jul 30, 2004 9:25:48 GMT -5
For anyone that has been following my situation here is an update. As you are already aware of Patti has her appointment tomorrow to be PTS. I have cancelled this appointment. There is no way I can bring myself to have this done. I admit that Patti has issues that needs to be delt with and having her PTS seems to me the easy way out. The vet wants to see her and run test to make sure there is no underlying issues (health wise) going on with her. So I am taking her tomorrow for that instead. I have been reading up on dog on dog aggression, NILIF and other methods of working with her. Seeing that I am having my baby in a few more weeks I'll be home for at least 3 months. During this time I will be able to work with Patti. I do currently have the girls seperate. I thought that would be hard to handle but it is not. I rotate the girls indoors and out. I do not want to give up on any one of my dogs. I love them too much! I will try anything and everything to help the situation as long as my family members are safe. I have also contacted Free's trainer and waiting to see it there is any open slots for her to help me work with Patti, if Free's trainer is unavailable then I will move on to Asim's trainer. I now there is help out there for her and I am determined to fine it.
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Post by Brooke on Jul 30, 2004 9:45:11 GMT -5
Thyroid is a big thing you want to check for these kinds of problems. Sounds like you won't have a problem with your vet but if you do insist on it.
I think you'll see a big difference in her with a change in training.
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Post by amyjo on Jul 30, 2004 10:28:19 GMT -5
Okay - I went to Dogo and read your threads about the girls there... I didn't realize Free was in the home first. I to could be that I have the order wrong.
You really need to take a close look at these girls...watch them carefully, Don't only look at the obvious things like size, speed, strength, agility but look for subtle stuff like confidence. If you take the girls into an unfamiliar place or bring something into the house they have never seen before which one hangs back a little - which one investigates boldly. Which one holds her head a bit higher, Which one is LESS frantic about guarding resources? I think from your posts they both do it...but resource guarding is a sign of a lack of confidence - it may be a display of "dominance" but it has a desperate quality that shows the dog isn't really very confident at all.... From the stuff I read at Dogo - I am pretty sure Free kicked Patti's @ss.....
So here is what I would do....I would use this vet appointment to get the dog SPAYED. I would house her at the vet for a few days after. I know it isn't necessary but the vet will do it if you ask...This way free doesn't get any ideas about taking her down while she is weak.
While she is gone you are thinking carefully about which dog is really capable of being the lead bitch (mentally, physically and emotionally) and from the moment she walks back into the door - you are enforcing the new pack order. PERIOD.
Finally - I just want to say that I don't know what kind of trainer you have for Free and Asim...but I am pretty appalled that these "trainers" haven't given you the skills to LIVE with these dogs. They might be showing how to function in the ring ... but in terms of real, usefull, save- your- dog and protect- your- family kind of information they have failed you miserably. If you are working with trainers there is no reason the concepts of the NILIF program should be something new. I would look for new trainers.
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Post by amyjo on Jul 30, 2004 10:32:52 GMT -5
I can't stress ENOUGH that if you do not SPAY this dog - you are swimming against the tide. Spaying won't take care of your whole problem...but not spaying will make it nearly impossible to manage it.
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Post by Richard on Jul 30, 2004 12:27:10 GMT -5
.....you are enforcing the new pack order. PERIOD. If there is one line of amyjo's excellent posts to you that should stand out, it is this one.... Plain and simple, you have a dog pack with no leader. I commend you on trying to sort this out but with a new child on the way in 3 weeks, you will have your hands full. If you manage to sort out the pack ranking (with you at the top, then your son - or any other ranking family member) you may restore some sort of harmony in your home...the dogs will need to realize that fighting with each other will invoke a response from you that they won't forget that will send a clear message that this sort of behaviour wont be tolerated anytime. If this sounds like something you can do, then go for it....you've basically got a potential powderkeg in the works there and you are the one to sort it out. I think you know what has to be done if you wish to keep all three together....I wish you success. -Richard
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Post by xavierandrea on Jul 30, 2004 19:57:19 GMT -5
Sorry for sounding stupid but how do I enforce a new pack order. Free has always been the one to go and investigate everything, whether it is a noise, new items I brought into the home etc. She will walk right up to things without any fear. Free always walks with her head high. Patti on the other hand runs away from things. She will run into a corner to hide when loud noises are made. If she doesn't recognize an item she will run from it. She does hold her head down all the time. If I am petting her, she'll putt her head so far down to the floor.When I walk them Patti makes it a point to move out of the path of other walkers and she'll hide behind me. Free stops and give them the stare of death. Even though Free's weight is at least 30 lbs lighter than Patti, Free did as Amyjo stated kick Patti's bum. Now with all this said can I asume that Free should be the queen "B"?
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Post by Richard on Jul 30, 2004 20:18:22 GMT -5
No you don't sound stupid...we're all here to learn!! By "new pack order" what we are saying is that you are going to be the "Alpha" of the pack and the dogs will have to listen to you and respect your decisions...i.e: you say "NO" they know you mean it instead of looking at you for a minute and carrying on the thing that they weren't supposed to be doing. It also means they are beneath the humans in the house and that they will set up their own pecking order (closely monitored by you). What this entails is the NILIF program and you making sure that all 3 stick to the program...they need to know with out a doubt in their mind that when you speak, they will comply. Having strong headed dogs (whether they're assertive or meek) still requires you to behave in such a way that what you say goes...if there is no human leader in a dog pack, the dogs will do their thing with no regards to you..this goes for if its just one dog or three. With everything else that is going on between your dogs, you also have to step up to the plate and be more assertive in your role as Alpha. I gotta scoot but if you do a search on Alpha in this forum, you'll read a lot more about what it means and how it can help keep peace in the house -Richard
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