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Post by amyjo on Jun 29, 2004 10:56:10 GMT -5
And sibemom you have no argument from me - well said!
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Post by sibemom on Jun 29, 2004 12:03:03 GMT -5
Thanks Amy, but again what Loey is saying is very true, but there are a few off takes on it. You never really know 100% about the tempermant of a dog untill they are put under some less than perfect circumstances. What I may percive as a dog with great tempermant, even after doing all my homework ( if we are talking about a purebred) things can still go wrong. Take the case of that litter of my pups. I was VERY selective in picking sire's for my females, and I always looked for tempermant first, because I will tell you what I would rather have a dopey lovable dog than a smart killer The whole litter turned out to be great dogs EXCEPT her. These people were wonderful, because yes I was selling puppies but I checked out the prospective owners very well before I would agree to sell them one of my pup's. They did nothing wrong, and I tried my best but this was a young pup and the first time I had ever seen behavior like this in one of this age. It was so weird and I still cannot figure out why she was the way she was. I do believe that genitcs are a factor but I think some of those issues can be worked through by proper rearing.
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Post by amyjo on Jun 29, 2004 12:10:58 GMT -5
So we agree we are talking apples and oranges here?
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Post by Richard on Jun 29, 2004 13:55:08 GMT -5
Ok, gotta jump in on this one ladies....
Having lived with Rocky and the early problems we had, I know it was my fault, not his....I'm the one who didn't step up to the plate and take control of him soon enough...I only found out how far off the mark I was when we went for our assesment with eventually the trainer we stuck with for almost 3 years (between OB and SAR work).
He is of sound temperment, breeding and very strong german bloodlines that the breeder warned me about (I listened but didn't react properly or in a timely fashion).
I think it is because of his breeding that I was able to get him trained to understand how things were going to be.....I was really the one being trained..Rocky was just acting like a dog with no one to lead the pack..so he did it.
With our ongoing training and a lot of useful advice from many here (the SB'rs) I have the dog I wanted and am a competent dog handler...it was a wakeup call for me and just what Rocky needed to get confident and comfortable with us.
But yes, there are those dogs, and there are a lot of them, that are not sound mentally (or physically)...unfortuanetly, those are the ones that people who don't do their homework end up with, either via a backyard breeder (the worst) the regular breeder (yeah, he/she is the last one they say) or a pet shop (acccckkkkkkkkkk) and they're the ones that eventually end up being PTS because there is no way of training them let alone existing with them in your home.
Apples and oranges...perhaps, but the view from each side does have many valid points when it comes to dogs and aggression (or other problems)....each worth considering but regardless, each dog should be assesed on a balanced scale to figure out the best plan of action.
-Richard
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Post by Willow on Jun 29, 2004 20:25:58 GMT -5
I understand what you are all saying, which is basically, that most dogs will aggress if pushed hard enough, and a lot of dogs with basically sound temperments can become aggressive if the owner doesn't know dog behavior and allows the dog to be the "leader of the pack".
I still think the dog has to have the propensity for aggressive behavior in his genes. Maybe all dogs do, but some more than others. And by that I don't mean because of having ancestors that were aggressive. I think even in dogs who have excellent lineage, there can be those that, for whatever reason, they just inherit or have a flaw in their genes (For lack of better terminology!) that causes a particular dog to lean this way or that.
Which brings up another point. Why are some dogs more prone to aggression than other's? Is it the breed of dog? Is it, as Ann's and my homeopath contends, and as Ann touched on, from the Rabies vaccine? Our homeopath contends NO dog is born with an aggressive gene, per se, but because we vaccinate for Rabies and the Rabies vaccine causes the symptoms of the disease that is why we are seeing more aggression in our dogs. She also contends that even unvaccinated puppies can inherit the symptoms from parents/grandparents who have been vaccinated, and it takes like 10 generations of non-vaccinated dogs to completely wipe out the symptoms being passed on to the puppies.
I don't know. I don't think anyone knows for certain, but most of us here have quite a bit of experience with dogs and we are basing our beliefs on what we have observed and/or experienced.
Take for instance my two recent dogs, Kerra and Pup. Kerra is a registered Australian Shepherd. Notorious for not being good family dogs, right? Why? Because they are of the herding group and most have a very strong "prey" *I prefer the term "herding" drive, because "prey" to me denotes chase down and kill, which herding breeds are not supposed to do!* ;D Plus they have been bred to work herding cattle/sheep all day so have boundless energy, and as we know, can get into a lot of trouble if they are not given enough exercise. Pup was a Border Collie cross and the BC has the same reputation, for the same reasons, and even more so than the Aussie.
Both breeds have the propensity for aggression and that is why a lot of Aussies and BC's end up in shelter's or Rescue's. The other reason is because people who own these breeds have to be active. These dogs cannot be kept in a kennel or crate all day while the owner's work, and then given a half hr. leash walk in the evening's. It just isn't going to work.
Take Kerra. One of the reason's she was turned over to rescue is because she chased/barked at everything that moved. She was also "herding" the children in the family and nipping at their heels.
Now Pup otoh, had no "herding drive" whatsoever, and he was the gentlest, sweetest, most laid back dog I have ever seen. I would have been the most shocked person in the world if Pup could have been driven to lay teeth on anyone!!! Kerra, otoh, tries to first get away from things she finds unpleasant, (nail clipping, baths etc.) and even if I "corner" her, she will just act very submissive while I put the leash on her. However; if someone just rushed in at her and grabbed her by the scruff, she might bite. I have taken her by the scruff and said, "come on, Kerra", and she comes willingly without any problem whatsoever, but I am careful to do it very gently and slowly, but I still feel she has the propensity or perhaps a better term would be, likelyhood to bite under those circumstances.
Is it in her "genes" or "stupid owner error".
I think it's some of both! Obviously her previous owner's didn't have a clue as to the breeds characteristics, and didn't train her at all, but because I do know the "inherited traits" of the Aussie, and I also know her individual temperment (we all know in every breed individual dogs differ as far as their temperment) I am always very cautious with her. I don't mean that I let her get away with anything, but I am just not going to "manhandle" her so to speak, because I know she doesn't like that sort of treatment and she could probably be pushed to bite.
So there we are again. Which came first? Her "inherited/individual temperment", or mistakes made by her previous owner?
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Post by amyjo on Jun 29, 2004 21:04:45 GMT -5
Loey - I totally get what you are saying and I agree with everything you said just now. I also see some of those same traits in my aussie and I often wonder what happened to her before I got her or if that nippy reationary stuff is just they way she is "wired".
But I guess what I WAS saying before though was actually the opposite. I believe that Elvis is and always WAS a good dog of solid temperment. His aggression was not due to a failing of temperment or a reaction to abuse...He stepped up and filled a power vaccuum because he is a dominant dog.
He isn't so dominant that he constantly bucks for rank - he is now very content for "his people" to lead. BUT it is, in fact his somewhat dominate nature that makes him a stable secure dog with an excellent temperment.
He is confident in every situation - he is calm and reliable. He gets along with every dog he meets.He is great with people. He is a true "alpha dog" he just exudes this "don't mess with me" aire that keeps him out of trouble.
So the very trait that makes him such a good dog today got him into trouble because his "parents" (especially me) didn't step up and lead.
I'll agree 100 percent that this does not apply to every situation - and we really can't know the true causes of all aggression...but in our case it truly was a failing on my part - not his and I am certain of that.
Does that make sense?
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Post by Willow on Jun 29, 2004 21:26:46 GMT -5
That makes perfect sense, Amyjo and I think you did a fantastic job of recognizing your mistake with him and of turning around and doing things right. I guess what I was getting at, is that, unfortunately, most people don't do that when their dog shows aggression. They continue to make mistakes, such as making excuses for the dog and themselves, or failing to recognize that their particular dog has a temperment "flaw" and the dog gets worse until there is nothing else to do but put the dog down. I mean, how long should someone work with a dog and how many times does it have to bite someone before they realize this dog is just not "normal"? This is what really gets to me.
I think you and Elvis both are an "exception" to the "rule", so to speak. ;D
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