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Post by PawPrint on Jun 22, 2004 0:52:18 GMT -5
Hi. I have a couple of issues and I am not that experienced in dog aggression. A lady came to me a couple of days ago with a situation. This is it. She has 2 English Bulldogs. One is 3 years and the other 8 months. Both are intact males. The 8 mo old she has only had a couple of weeks and he was a rescue. Anyone with ANY experience knows that Eng Bulldogs are passive, laidback dogs. The older Bulldog has attacked several people. She has narrowed the situation down. SHe HAD a friend, who was left alone with the dog often. She believes the girl mistreated the dog because the only people the dog bites is people of the same description. Small, dark, short hair females. Last week she had to bring a friend to the hospital because she was bit. the 2 males are also fighting each other, badly. Mle aggression and dominance issues, but any way to help this? Any advice on how to help her?
My other problem is a Pit Bull. He is about 6 mo old. He has started to bite the owners son. he growls, snarls and bites him. The lady blames it on her son, saying he is mean to the dog, etc. I have tried, several times, to talk to the son about how to treat the dog etc. but have also explained that the dg biting is not accepetable for any reason. Need help on this too.
I know I have probably not explained these situations very clearly, so please ask any questions to help. Thank you!
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Post by sibemom on Jun 22, 2004 4:40:04 GMT -5
The first thing I want to know is why are these bulldogs still in tact? Unless she is planning on breeding them they should be neutered. The other thing is that even though the owner thinks that this girl has been mistreating the dog, and now the dog thinks everyone who resembles her is a threat is still not excuse. I guess I do not have much tolerance for dogs that bite, even though I know it can be encouraged by peoples behavior. If I were you I would read the thread on NILIF, get familiar with it and suggest she start implementing that ASAP. As far as the Pit goes at 6 months that is a concern, if they cannot keep the son from mistreating the dog they are asking for trouble. Usually aggresion does not show up untill the dog is closer to maturity and for this dog to be showing that kind of behavior already is not good, and will only get worse unless they stop the son, or get rid of the dog. Is this Pit fully intact? The reason I ask is because fully intact dogs are more likely to bite then altered ones. I cannot stress the benefits of the NILIF program, but again if the family structure continues to promote aggresive behaviors there is not much hope for the dog to overcome this. In my house NO ONE is allowed to play rough with the dogs, play tug, or encourage bitting of any sort. My kids know how to treat them and even my 3 year old knows that if he gets sassy with one of the dogs he will get punished, and so will the dog if it reacts in a way less than desireable. The longer you work with people the more you will understand that some just do not get it. No matter what you suggest as a trainer, if they do not agree or think it is to harsh they are not going to follow the training plan. You just have to do what you can to prevent someone from getting hurt and if they still do not comply well at least you know you have done all you can. There is very good information at the link to aggresive dogs at the Leerburg Site. Do your best to convince them how to manage it and if they do not comply wash your hands of them.
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Post by amyjo on Jun 22, 2004 7:24:19 GMT -5
Pawprint -
I know you might not like this - but I have to say it. These dogs cannot be helped by the Petsmart training program. Big box pet store training programs have thier place. They are great for young dogs to socialize and great for teaching basic commands to "normal" dogs (for lack of a better word)...but from what I know about your employers training methods...you do not have the necessary tools to help these folks. It would be like sending a human child with severe emotional and behavioral problems into a mainstream kindergarten class and expecting them to be just like the rest of the other kids in a couple of weeks...it's just not gonna happen. The most you can do in these cases is provide basic info on NILIF, teach basic commands and push as hard as you can for neutering and tell the owners to exercise these dogs more. These measures will not eliminate aggression but will go a long way towards helping to manage it. Give these owners a foundation and then reccomend a private trainer who specializes in aggresssion and has a proven track record.
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Post by Willow on Jun 22, 2004 9:32:11 GMT -5
Sibemom and Amyjo are correct. I would suggest you print out the excellent information on NILIF here, familiarize yourself with it, go over it with the owner's and give them copies.
I would also tell the owner of the Bulldogs that along with getting them neutered, the dogs should be separated at all times, because not only is it likely the one being attacked will become aggressive, but one or both of them will most likely eventually suffer serious damage.
Dogs can get serious infections from being bitten by another dog, even if the bite itself is not that serious, and then you are looking at huge Vet bills etc., not to mention that there are cases where a dog being bitten on it's leg had to eventually have the leg amputated when the antibiotics etc. did not stop the infection.
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Post by PawPrint on Jun 22, 2004 14:13:03 GMT -5
Thank you all for the advise. Much appreciated! I have spoken to the lady with the Pit several times about this & I don't think they are going to change much although I will print out the NILIF info and talk with her about it. I also agree with Amyjo about Petsmart not really having the necessary tools to deal with some of the aggression issues, which is why I am here!! If I depended on the training methods taught to me only by Petsmart, I will probably be in trouble! Thank you for the advise & if anyone else has anythng else, please be sure to post it!!
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Post by Laura on Jun 22, 2004 18:18:59 GMT -5
Hi PawPrint, welcome to the forum ! You've gotten some good starting advice, but dealing with aggression problems over the internet is a tough thing to do since there are several different kinds of aggression, and seeing the dog first hand in it's environment is about the only way to get a handle on what's causing it. Unfortunately, people have very selective memories when it comes to describing their dog's behavior and with those who interact with the dog, so be prepared to do some " digging" for solid info (sometimes I have to pry it out with a crowbar : . Dominance aggression and fear aggression are two different animals, and while the treatment is similar for both, a spooky fearful dog needs a little different tweaking. Pick and choose your battles carefully with an aggressive dog, only pick the battles you are sure you can win. And if you really want to get some experience working with aggression, go to the nearest shelter one day a week and volunteer your services, I guarantee you'll learn more about canine behavior in a month at a shelter than you will working all year at Petsmart .
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Post by Aussienot on Jun 22, 2004 18:19:22 GMT -5
Both owners would benefit from individual training with a professional trainer. The owners need as much training as the dogs do and you can't provide that in group instruction. I know you want to help them all, but consider the scope of Petsmart training.
I am an obedience instructor for a non-profit community dog club. Our charter is to provide easy access to low cost obedience training. So we offer Obedience 101 but not cures for abherent dog behavior. Ok, invidual instructors will offer advice on common things like jumping up, barking and mouthing, but we as club policy don't deal with Aggression. Outside of our scope.
50% of our new entries are RSPCA rescue dogs, and aggressive dogs with inexperienced owners would quickly exhaust our resources. The club will assess aggressive dogs and their handlers, but we don't train them. Mildly dog agressive dogs with a good handler may be allowed for a few weeks at the edges of a group class to see if they can progress. Severely dog aggressive dogs, and ALL human aggressive dogs are immediately referred to professional trainers.
Human aggression in dogs usually comes with a lack of leadership from the owner, and/or weak nerves in the dog. The cures for aggression are not going to be found in group obedience. So by all means, tell the owners about NILIF, encourage them to seek professional help, tell them to neuter, and accept that you can do some good but you can't help them all.
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Post by Brooke on Jun 22, 2004 20:15:59 GMT -5
I don't have much to add here. While you may not have the tools to work with at PetSmart that doesn't mean you can't learn to use them outside that environment. I really appreciate that you are willing to do that. ;D It makes you a very good trainer. There are a few threads that may be helpful to you. In these cases I think the first would be the most helpful to you. I would recommend a hard core nilif program. Hard Core NILIFNothing In Life Is FreeDominanceAlso.... if they pass off your training advice at all I would just shake their hand and tell them "It was nice trying to work with you" turn and walk away. If they are asking for your advice they should take it. If they don't want to listen, don't waist your time. And just let them know that you have people who respect your time if they question you.
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Post by amyjo on Jun 23, 2004 6:11:04 GMT -5
I totally agree with Brooke that the Petsmart rules don't apply outside Petsmart - but I guess I just assumed there was only contact with these clients in a class context. Guess that is what happens when you assume...
My advise remains the same because that is where I still think training should begin (NILIF and teaching basic commands using positive methods).... But then I would suggest reading up on the concepts of "proofing" and applying timely and appropriate corrections - including the use of the "prong" or "pinch" collars.
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Post by boxerlover on Jun 28, 2004 19:44:04 GMT -5
See this beautiful little angel of a dog? Her name was Sadie. I had Sadie euthanized at only 7 months of age...she was very aggressive and getting worse by the day. Sadie was a pit mix of some type. I had her from only 10 weeks of age and we use NILIF in our home with our dogs. So I do not blame myself. I think some dogs are just not genetically right!
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Post by Willow on Jun 28, 2004 20:36:44 GMT -5
I'm sorry about Sadie, Boxerlover. I'm sure you did all you could for her and I absolutely agree with you. That's why I get upset when people say it is not a dogs fault if it becomes aggressive, it is the owner's, because I know that is not true. A dog with a good temperment will not become aggressive no matter what an owner does or does not do to the dog, but NILIF will SOMETIMES help "curb" aggressive tendencies a dog has. Even that doesn't work most of the time, however, and eventually, as the dog ages, the aggression will rear it's ugly head again.
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Post by sibemom on Jun 28, 2004 21:04:45 GMT -5
I am very sorry to hear that about your Sadie but as Loey stated some dogs just have that aggresion inbred in them and no matter what you do it does not go away. I am a firm believer in giving it the best you have but also in the end if it does not work you do what is best for the dog and humanity. I wish it was possiable to save them all but it's not. An example of this is from a litter from my own dogs. When I use to breed labs I had a beautiful litter out of my dog Shadow and a sire that had many credits to his name. Both of these dogs were wonderful It was a large litter 10 to be exact and I kept one pup a male, the others were sold and doing good EXCEPT a female that a young couple bought. Now my pup was great and so were the others, but for some reason this young female was not quite right. At 4 months old she was growly and down right nasty. They brought her to me and I worked with her for about another month then sent her back still not sure she was right. At around 8 months old they had her put down, with my blessings she tried to attack the young woman who was pregnant at the time. The vet gave no explenation except that sometimes it happens. That was the last litter I allowed Shadow to have, because which ever side it came from I was not going to allow it to happen again. So it is not always the owner sometimes it's something that comes out no matter how much you research the breedings.
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Post by amyjo on Jun 29, 2004 10:18:14 GMT -5
Loey - I have to respectfully disagree based on my own experience. I do not believe that a dog with a good temperment will not get agressive no matter what the owner does or does not do. I agree there are different types of aggression - there is fear aggression and aggression triggered by "fight" drive - which for lack of a better word - I call aggression-aggression... and in these cases I believe you are probably correct - but in the case of true dominance-aggression the dog is simply doing what he believes to be his right as the "leader" He is supposed to correct his "people" and keep everyone in line. In cases like these it is a true failing on the owners part to be a good leader. The dog isn't so much aggressive as he is "doing his job"...I wouldn't say the dog has a bad temperment. In cases like this NILIF and other leadership exercises make all the difference in the world..... and while I'll agree it is basically an exercise in life long management - I consider my old pooch to be cured of his "aggression" or at least in permanent "remission" as Aussienot calls it.
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Post by sibemom on Jun 29, 2004 10:50:34 GMT -5
Here is my feeble opinion on this, as a rule a dog with sound tempermant will not turn aggresive under normal circumstances, but of course I suppose if the dog is abused severly it will crack. I think too it depends on exactly how submisive the dog was to begin with. I have seen some dogs tolerate horriable things, and still have the desire to love and be around people with not one aggresive tendency show up. Then again I have seen dogs that I would consider to be of the greatest tempermant, turn ugly after undergoing the same thing. It is so hard to pin point exactly where this comes from. You might say it is the cause and effect of vaccinosis. It might be something from way back in their bloodlines, or it could just be a one of those unexplained mysteries. What is important though is that an owner have the right attitude about how far they are willing to go with the dog. For me, if I have a dog that is getting more and more aggresive to people and I have done everything I can to fix or manage the problem and still am getting nowhere then I would put it down. I just do not feel there is any room for a dog that could be a potential threat to humans, when there are so many other dogs out there of stable tempermant who need homes. But that is my opinion. Everyone must decide this for themselves
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Post by amyjo on Jun 29, 2004 10:53:01 GMT -5
I guess what I am trying to say is that if Elvis went to live with YOU (Loey or most people here) when he was a puppy - he would have naturally received the proper training and lifestyle and never would have agressed...and you would proabably believe him to be a dog of excellent temperment.
Instead he got mr. and mrs head-in-the-sand and we almost ruined him. This is not the same as a dog who genetically "just isn't right." or has suffered unspeakable abuse and reacts.
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