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Post by Nicole on Jun 6, 2004 13:52:23 GMT -5
Oh, it is "acquiesce." ;D I had to look it up on my email spellcheck! ;D
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Post by sibemom on Jun 6, 2004 13:53:09 GMT -5
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Post by Willow on Jun 6, 2004 14:25:29 GMT -5
;D I hope I didn't come across as saying that just because I am "more experienced" (cough, cough) ;D that I am "right". All I am going on is what I have experienced in my looooong lifetime ;D of having dogs and knowing lots of people who have dogs.
What I was trying to say is that when I started to read all the differing opinions out there is when I started to become confused, changed my methods to what I was hearing from the so called "experts" was the correct way to do it, and I was starting to get into trouble!
I really feel sorry for new dog owner's looking for guidance. How in the world do you decipher all the information out there now and know if it's "good" or "bad" information if you have never owned/trained a dog before?
I have the utmost respect for you and your training abilities, Nicki, and envy your ability to get your thoughts down in writing in a clear and understandable way. ;D You are wise beyond your years, believe me!
Thanks for finding "acquiesce" for me, too!!! I knew there was a "c" in there, but I was blank at the moment!
I also agree with both you and Sibemom, that dogs have "survived" up to now inspite of all we inferior humans have tried to do to them, and hopefully they will continue to do so! ;D
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Post by StupFD on Jun 6, 2004 15:40:03 GMT -5
>:(Look what I started! When Jesse was a pup we had aggression problems around food. On two or three occassions he stopped short of biting us by wrapping his mouth around our arms and just latching on enough to warn us. He was also becoming aggressive to our older dog and would get pretty upset if winston came near his dish. We had him in obedience at the time of these incidents and went for some extra help on that issue. We were told at that time to make sure we feed Winston first to try to establish that Winston was Alpha. I would agree that we have really never been able to "force" a change in who is pack leader but I will say that we saw big changes. At first, Winston could barely eat his dinner...he would be looking over his shoulders. But that soon passed and now Winston will sometimes grab a couple of extra bites from Jesse's bowl when we first set it down. We have seen no threatening behaviour as a result, but Jesse will certainly push winston aside and take over. He hasn't done the mouth thing for a longtime either. Feeding Winston first has worked for us. Now it's off to fix the next problem!
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Post by StupFD on Jun 6, 2004 16:06:17 GMT -5
One more thing I should add. These 2 dogs are quite literally best friends. The only time Jesse ever snapped at Winston was at the food dish a longtime ago and a few mild nips at bedtime when Jesse has beaten winston to the closet.
They have never since day one fought or had a falling out. We play fetch at the park and when winston beats Jesse to the ball there has never been an agressive outburst.
Jesse is crated when we are out of the house unless we are only going to be gone for less than 4 hours. We have never come home to find them doing anything other than sleeping or sitting looking out the window. Their toys will be sitting exactly where they were when we left.
It is not uncommon in the morning to find Jesse, the big bad aggressive dog to be nuzzled into Winston sound asleep.
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Post by sibemom on Jun 6, 2004 16:13:57 GMT -5
Dont worry you did not start anything we like good debates and looking at each others points of veiw ;D It just show's the diffrences in how each of us approaches our realtionships with our dogs Your dogs sound like a good team
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Post by Willow on Jun 7, 2004 8:24:51 GMT -5
StupFD: You didn't "start" anything by your first post, and we all agree that you definately do have a problem with your two dogs. I'm just not "big" on making an issue on figuring out "rank" among the dogs, and treating them accordingly, because sometimes it isn't really clear, (at least to me), and I worry that if I misread them, I could make matter's worse. That's why all I am concerned about is that my dogs treat each other with respect, and treat the humans in the family with respect.
Nicki's initial post to you was excellent I would suggest you go back and read it again, read the thread about NILIF and start instituting it immediately, with both dogs. The older dogs aggression towards you has to stop immediately, because it will only escalate until he is biting you and you definately don't want that to happen, so there too, Nicki is correct about banning him from the closet and your bedroom etc.
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Post by amyjo on Jun 7, 2004 8:47:39 GMT -5
What a cool discussion! I just want to mention that the dog that "appears" to be alpha - the one that is nippy, snappy, guarding and anxious is sometimes NOT alpha.
Alpha is calm cool and collected and will pick his battles carefully. He may not fight over a ball or food or a dog bed because he just "doesn't care" and is picking his battles carefully.
Often it is an insecure dog who will struggle to maintain resources. Here at my house I have a young (under 3) Aussie female and a 12 year old lab/shep mix who has 20 pounds on her. She acts "dominant" hogging all the resources, butting in when he is getting attention and generally getting away with all kinds of poor behavior where he is concerned...But on the other hand if he really wants something or wants her to get away all he has to do is curl his lip or issue a couple of sharp barks and she goes down on her belly. This is subtle and would be easy to miss because he very rarely does it (I have only seen it a handfull of times).- he is content to know that he can.
Make sense?
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Post by Willow on Jun 7, 2004 9:22:47 GMT -5
Makes perfect sense to me, Amyjo, because that is the way it was with Kerra, (my Aussie) and Pup, my BC/Aussie).
Kerra is very dominant acting and pushy with other dogs in general, and esp. with other female dogs. I had Pup before I got her and he was the older of the two, but when she came into the household, she appeared to be the "Alpha" of the two, but like with your dogs, when Pup had enough of her attitude, or something really mattered to him, he would put her in her place in a hurry! I only saw it twice, but it was a surprise both times, that my gentle old dog could really stand up for himself like that! ;D
The point is, since Kerra "appeared" to be the Alpha, had I treated her as such, and fed her first, gave her attention first etc., from what I am hearing, that could have made her very confused and insecure.
It's also very interesting, because when I was giving attention to Pup, Kerra would just lie a distance away and never try to push her way in. The same was true most of the time with Pup if I was paying attention to Kerra, although at times if I was playing with her, he would come over and want me to pet him. I guess from what I am hearing, that is really a "dominant/Alpha" thing? I just considered Pup a "pushy" dog, in a more subtle way. He would put a foot on mine alot, and as I said, would come up to me and other's alot and in his quiet, gentle way, demand to be pet, so it was never perfectly clear to me who the Alpha of the two really was, so I would say they were treated pretty much equally, which worked fine in our household with never any problems.
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Post by FlatCoatedLover on Jun 7, 2004 13:05:11 GMT -5
I have a question just to clarify something for myself. Currently I have a 1 and 1/2 year old retreiver mix. She is a very submissive dog my nature and is allowed many privlages like geting on the couch or bed as well as free roam of the house. We are in the process of adopting another dog. If this new dog is a more dominat temperment (and become alpha over her) and cannot be afforded the same privilages do we have to stop letting her have them as well.
If this is the case I think I will have to make sure to get another very submissive dog or not one at all. Lucy is the princess of the house (Hubby and I are difinetly the King and Queen however) and I can't see it being fair to restrict her privilages because the other can't have them too.
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Post by sibemom on Jun 7, 2004 14:24:49 GMT -5
Well these are things you have to decide for yourself and your home. To allow one to have free roam of your house and not the other could pose an issue, but it depends on the dog you bring in. Some dogs have to earn everything they are given and some dogs just follow the flow with out question. I would get another dog of the oppisite sex though it seems to be less trouble that way. This whole Alpha thing makes me laugh sometimes. We sit there and say how we have to be Alpha to our dogs but then talk about how one dog is alpha over another. If I understand it correctly there is only ONE leader in a pack, and yes some lower ranking members may challange but, if we ourselves are doing a good job at establishing who the boss is then there should be not problems. Now this does not mean when you get a dog aggresive dog, or human aggresive dog the plan stays the same. Those issues need to be handled a little different, still establishing the leadership but in a different sense.
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Post by Willow on Jun 7, 2004 14:28:52 GMT -5
That is an excellent question and the ones who are more experienced with this sort of thing will have to answer that one for you.
As "Alpha", I treat my dogs equally in their lower ranking positions, and in our "pack" that means none of the "lower ranking" dogs are allowed on the "Alpha's" furniture or beds. To date, not one of them have complained. ;D
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Post by FlatCoatedLover on Jun 7, 2004 14:41:52 GMT -5
When we adopted Lucy it was like she had been waiting for us. We went to the Humane Socitety and while all the other dogs were barking and going crazy she was sitting at the front of her kennel with the most sweet and loving look on her face. At the same moment my husband and I said she's the one. We are the undisputed pack leaders but we enjoy having her sleep on the bed or cuddle on the couch with us and have never had any growling or snapping when she is ask to vacate.
I guess my concern is that we won't be so lucky with the next one. It he turns out to have a more dominant temperment and gets aggressive when allowed on the bed or couch. I know that he would no longer be allowed but would Lucy have to stop as well?
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Post by Nicole on Jun 7, 2004 15:46:41 GMT -5
Your best bet is to get a male who is on the submissive side. But even a dominant male will not often be concerned with rank with a female unless the female is a dominant female. It isn't as important with opposite sexed dogs. Two females on the other hand will determine their rank.
I wouldn't be concerned about keeping Lucy on the bed as long as it isn't causing a problem between the two dogs. If the dogs are comfortable and not fighting (opposite sexed dogs usually do very well together), then keeping lucy on the bed should not be a problem.
You might even consider not ever letting the new dog on the bed at all. They don't usually miss what they have never had.
Perhaps others will have more insight.
I suggested to the original poster to not let Winston in the closet because of the resouce guarding. I did not want there to be an exacerbation of problems between the two dogs especially considering that they are both males and one was starting to feel his oats.
Amyjo, you are absolutly right. I didn't consider that.
Willow, thanks for the compliment!!
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