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Post by StupFD on Jun 4, 2004 12:27:53 GMT -5
Hi there. We have 2 male neutered dogs, one is 4 and the other is almost 3. We have had both dogs since 8 weeks old. Our younger dog is growing very protecting of his bed. Both dogs sleep in the closet in our room. What started as a couple of warning nips to our older dog has developed to growling at us and snarling and teeth showing if we try to get him out of the closet. Normally this dog loves people. He is not allowed on the bed or couch because he always has been a dominating dog. Any suggestions of what we should do? We thought about not letting him sleep in the closet. We have also considered making him sleep alone in another room but we have heard aggressive dogs should not be segregated or it can worsen. One last thing I should mention...We can role him on his back in the closet and pet his stomach. He will growl but it will gradually decline until he stops. I find that a little confusing because of the submissive nature of that position. Anyone?
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Post by Nicole on Jun 4, 2004 15:03:46 GMT -5
Welcome StupFD. Your dog is resource guarding. He considers the closet (the space) and bed to be his and he is warning you to stay away. The problem is that the closet and bed are NOT his they are YOURS and you are granting him the privilege of using them. Just about now he is coming into social and emotional maturity and is most definitely testing your leadership and superior place in the pack. He is telling you (and your older dog) that he is in charge and that no one can touch his space or things. So what do you do. Lock him in the closet for two days!! Just kidding. You take away his access to the closet and his bedding (assuming that he guards his bed outside of the closet) and any other possession that he considers to be his. You also institute a strict NILIF regimen dogden.proboards21.com/index.cgi?board=Questions&action=display&thread=1079736429 wherein he has to earn every single privilege to show him that he is inferior to you in the pack. Remember he is a dog, he has no rights, he owns nothing and you rule his world. I have not heard that segregation escalates aggression. Where did you hear that? Perhaps if you granted the older dog the privilege of staying in the closet and you put the younger dog in a crate, you escalate rank problems between the two dogs, but not with you. Although you may see a burst of aggression as it extinguishes (See NILIF thread for more on extinction.) In any event, from hereinafter the dog should sleep on the floor somewhere outside of your room, or in a crate. Your room and space is for alpha only. Follow NILIF and he will learn very quickly who the ruler is in your house. Do not treat the younger dog with less privileges than the older because it seems that the younger has established himself as superior to the older. Unfortunately, since the younger has been kicked out of your room, the older dog must also lose the privilege. You do not want to tinker with the rank that the dogs have established between themselves. Lastly, as to the growling when he rolls over, he is clearly telling you he does not like this. Unless you get him under control this also very well may escalate to a bite. Understand that an inferior ranked dog NEVER growls at alpha. This dog does not know his place.
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Post by StupFD on Jun 4, 2004 16:02:19 GMT -5
Thanks for the great info. Changes will be implemented this evening!
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Post by sibemom on Jun 6, 2004 7:36:11 GMT -5
I agree with everything Nicki said. Resource gaurding can turn into other issues. I do not allow my dogs to sleep in the same room with me. My bedroom is off limits. If you do what was suggested I am sure things will get better. I also have a question which dog did you have first? It is very important that which ever dog was in the home first, to always make sure that they are the ones who get the attention first etc... I made it quite clear to everyone in our family that Blade must come first before the pup. Keeping that clear to them has made the transition of a 1 dog home, to two dog home much easier. At this point there is no fighting for attention, food, etc... Later on the pack order might change between the two dogs, but that will be up to them. The one thing that must be constant though is that the dogs remember who the leaders are, not them of course but the humans in your household.
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Post by StupFD on Jun 6, 2004 8:22:13 GMT -5
Hi Sibemom. We have had both pups since they were 8 weeks old. Our older dog Winston is pretty much the opposite of the younger dog, Jesse. Winston is very calm, cool and collected with such a great disposition. Loves people, dogs and cats. But Winston is submissive by nature. When we got Jesse he immediately took over Alpha dog in the house from Winston. Our older dog never put Jesse in his place when he was a pup We have always fed Winston first; Jesse has to be on his bed while Winston eats. We most often given Winston attention first, Jesse second. Although starting now, that will be Winston first all the time. Winston also has privelages that Jesse doesn't. Winston we allow on the couch with us and on our bed by invitation. Jesse is almost never allowed on the couch or bed (maybe once every 2 months). Again this privelage will be discontinued.
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Post by sibemom on Jun 6, 2004 8:52:19 GMT -5
Sounds like a good plan If you are consistant with your plan of action you can fix this problem and it is good to know that your older dog comes first. So many times people throw up their hands and just allow things to get worse. I can see you want to make things better and that is the first step to having a well behaved dog. Good luck and keep up posted
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Post by Nicole on Jun 6, 2004 9:23:02 GMT -5
I think when Ann said to give attention first to the existing dog, she was talking about when you first bring a new dog in...until they settle their rank.
If Jesse is Alpha to Winston you must acknowledge that. You can't choose who is alpha between dogs, they decide this and you have to respect that or you will create a problem that doesn't exist.
You must give Jesse the attention first, the treat first, the food first.. But jesse must also go aside and allow you to then give attention to Winston. You are alpha to both dogs but do not interfere with the dogs choice of who is alpha.
With Blade and Willow, there is no contest now. She is a pup. So Blade is alpha and gets everything first. But when Willow grows up she may take over..who knows. If and when that happens, you have to change accordingly.
When all dogs are mature, age, sex, size and who came first have nothing to do with who is the top dog. It is whoever has the attitude and mental and emotional make up to want and take the position.
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Post by sibemom on Jun 6, 2004 9:28:42 GMT -5
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Post by Nicole on Jun 6, 2004 9:34:10 GMT -5
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Post by Nicole on Jun 6, 2004 11:13:35 GMT -5
Still though I know you can not decide who is Alpha between the dogs, BUT if you are the true leader you can decide who gets what first. I have always done that with my dogs. Today might be this ones turn to be first and tommarow it might be someone elses And they must accept that. Okay, I wanted to think about this for a bit and here are my thoughts. When you say that you alternate attention and the dogs must accept this I believe that was the case because of your alpha personality and strong leadership. The dogs will do what Alpha wants when alpha is present even if it is a against their instinct. Bets are off though when they are alone. I think that it is unnatural for dogs to be forced to act against their instinct. But we do make them do this in many areas other than dog/dog relationships. We don't let them chase things or mark the tree etc. When you think about it, in the wild, Alpha would never insist upon or ask for this. But with the chasing and marking, the consequences of not allowing this behavior is not serious. When you have two dogs and you try to force them to behave against their instinct, the consequences can be very serious. I am not saying that you can’t under certain circumstances have harmony by not respecting the chosen rank, but I think more often than not this will create rank problems, especially when you have two same sexed dogs or two high pack oriented dogs or two dogs where one or both have dominant temperments. There are dogs that aren’t as concerned with rank...usually those that are not dominant, are very secure with their position or have a low pack drive. Pack instinct and behavior isn’t occasional. To a dog, it is black and white. If you throw a ball and two dogs chase it without human interference, the higher ranking dog will always get the ball. The lower will chase but will not take the ball. If left alone to decide who gets the bowl of food first, the lower ranking dog will always defer. So when you treat a lower ranking dog as superior to the higher ranked dog in ways that dogs understand, they will obey if they respect you, but it is stressful for them because it is unnatural. It is actually more stressful for the lower ranking dog because he knows what wrath this can bring upon him once alpha goes shopping. Of course I am not just referring to an occasional pat to the lower ranked dog first, I am talking about persistent interference. I am not saying that it can never work, but I do think that it can create instability, stress, tension (between the dogs) and fighting if it is often and blatant enough. These are just my thoughts on the subject. I am open to other opinions.
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Post by sibemom on Jun 6, 2004 12:20:22 GMT -5
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Post by Willow on Jun 6, 2004 13:20:59 GMT -5
Very interesting subject. ;D I don't have a lot of personal experience with more than one dog, except for only having two dogs three times in my life, and fostering occassionally. The times I had more than one dog, I didn't know about "rank", "pack status", " dominant, Submissive" etc. etc., because the books on dogs I read were on obedience training and Field Training etc., not dog psychology, pack rank or status or whatever it's called, so I did not have "experts" telling me what I was doing was right or wrong. All I insisted on is that there be no fighting, and dumb me, I guess, not knowing all this "Alpha" this and "Higher Status" that, " dominant and Submissive", and that they should "work it out themselves", if one dog growled at the other, without knowing what "rank" the dog was, I stepped in and stopped it before it escalated to an all out, knock down, drag out, and like Sibemom, I just took it for granted we would all get along and we did!!!! I never had a dominance struggle between the dogs that I hear so much about now that I have become "educated". Whether I was there, or I was gone, my dogs simply did not fight! They basically ignored each other. Each had their favorite spot outside to lay, and each had their own blanket in the house, which THEY chose btw...I didn't designate. They each had their own food dish and no matter which one I fed first, the other did not try to take the other's food away. The same with feeding RMB's outside...I would give them each their meal, they would take it to a spot they were comfortable with and eat without bothering the other one. If one walked away from their food inside or out, than it was "fair game" and the other one did not object when the other one came and ate/took it! I also didn't even think about which dog to feed first etc., because frankly, even after I became educated, I couldn't really tell which dog was the " dominant" one, and with Kerra and Pup, I always assumed Kerra was, because Pup would (almost) always aqueous to her, but there was a couple of times when Pup swiftly put her in her place. There was no fight, no blood, but when he growled, she knew he meant business and she stopped what she was doing and it was over with as quickly as it started. I guess from what I read now, I was just "lucky". My personal observation, which may not be correct, is that anytime you get dogs at the same time and close to the same age, as in the post at the beginning of this thread, is when it is almost a "given" that there will be problems, and that's why I always tell people not to get littermates or two pups close to the same age and definately not the same age/sex.
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Post by Willow on Jun 6, 2004 13:35:42 GMT -5
I think I have the word "aqueous" misspelled, but no matter how I spelled it, this is the closest the spell check came and I couldn't find it in my dictionary either! Sorry!
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Post by Nicole on Jun 6, 2004 13:50:27 GMT -5
I understand what you are both saying and I think your attitudes and training and leadership abilities (whether or not you were familiar with "leadership abilities" at the time ;D) play an important role in the harmony that you describe. I am pretty young so all I know are the proper rules and regulations....(not suggesting that you guys are old or anything!! ;D ;D). I often wonder how dogs survived before the internet and all of this "proper" training stuff. ;D Thanks for sharing your experiences. I am always willing to learn different ideas and approaches.
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Post by sibemom on Jun 6, 2004 13:51:13 GMT -5
You know Loey that is just it. I never really new about all the Alpha stuff either. I just did what made sense and never had a poblem. I always asumed if there was going to a leader it was the oldest of my dogs because they were there first, but I really could not tell either. Now maybe with Willow and Blade there might be some difference but I do not think so. They must do as I demand them to wether I am home or not. It is an interesting subject though
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