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Post by jstang18 on May 10, 2004 15:17:45 GMT -5
My Dog Bit My Father yesterday; I don't know what to do...I'm concerned about the future saftey of my dog and more importantly the people she interacts with.
My wife and I adopted a Terrier Mix (65 lbs) 3 months ago from a foster home. She (Marley) is very shy, normal for a recently adopted dog. (My wife and I have owned and been around dogs all our lives)
We love her; she is a good dog when we are alone. The problem is when there are people or kids in the house or backyard she is unpredictable. These are some of the incidents.
* Bit my father unprovoked, (on the back of the leg, drew blood through a pair of jeans) * She has attacked 2 other dogs. * She has freighted many of the small kids around the neighborhood with excessive barking and lunging. (At least 25 kids live on the block) * She maliciously growled and lunged at a toddler in our house as I stood next to the child.
I keep a very close eye on the dog since the first warning sign (The growling at the Toddler); My Dad is a “dog person” and has been over the house many times interacting with the dog, so I let my guard down slightly when the three of us were together. The moment I let my guard down she bit my father. (He has only been bitten 1 other time in 50+ years of dog ownership and interaction)
We talked about options with our vet this afternoon. She recommended a Training facility that specializes in Dog Aggression. My concern is that how do we know that the training worked until she bites someone again maybe worse?
I work on obedience training daily, she is learning slowly but steadily, I don't know if an hour or two a week with a professional dog trainer will help, but we are going to try.
I don’t want to give up on dog but I don’t know of any other option at this point. I don't feel safe with the dog around people now and I doubt I ever will...
After your dog bites someone are there steps to take to assure that the dog will not bite again?
If anyone has any other options I would love to talk about them…
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Post by Laura on May 10, 2004 21:39:44 GMT -5
Hi and welcome to the board! First thing that needs to be done, if it hasn't been already, is a visit to the vet, and have them do a full blood panel workup on the dog, including a thyroid test. If everything comes back clean, then behavior modification is the next step. Make sure the trainer you choose to hire has LOTS of experience with aggression, ask them for references from former clients and ask the trainer if you may contact them, any trainer worth their salt will be more than happy to comply. Also ask what kind of results you will expect to see, how often they will work with you, etc. In the interim ...... If the dog can't be supervised by you at ALL times, crate the dog. Next, get a Jafco wire basket type of muzzle, introduce it to the dog over the course of a few days and use it until everyone involved can determine whether or not this can be overcome. Please don't think this is cruel, you're trying to save her life, as well as keep everyone safe. Next step in to put the dog on NILIF, or Nothing In Life Is Free. here's a link to the article here on the forum dogden.proboards21.com/index.cgi?board=Questions&action=display&thread=1079736429By the time you're done, your dog should think it's name is SIT ;D, or DOWN. Hand feed the dog for the next few weeks as well, take all toys away, and give them to her when she's earned them. Aggression can be overcome, but will she be trustworthy? Sometimes yes, and sometimes probably not, but that's for you and your family to decide how much you can live with living day to day with maintaining her. And it is maintenence with an aggressive dog. I wish you luck, I wish more owners were as dedicated to their dogs as you are ! And don't hesitate to ask anything else, we have a lot of excellent handlers and trainers on this board, many of which have gone through the same thing .
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Post by Brooke on May 11, 2004 0:19:19 GMT -5
I don't know if an hour or two a week with a professional dog trainer will help, but we are going to try. The biggest misconception with these types of dogs is that it should only take a couple hours of training a week. With a dog like this training is a way of life, every waking hour of every day. Not just the dogs but yours. You have to really be in tune to your dog. At first you think it is a big huge change but once you get into it, it's really easy to get into the patterns. You begin to do it without even thinking about it. In this case I do have to say I am a little worried. Not just because of the toddler (because that's a given) but because the dog is attacking unprovoked. The fact that this dog bit someone on the back of the leg...which means this person was walking away, no eye contact or anything... that alone... really bothers me. Unless your father was running... I dunno. Kind of leads me to think that this may be more than a behavioral problem. For that reason I would definately wear a muzzle at the very least until the dog is evaluated. And it probably won't like it much for a little while but it will get used to it with a little time. Remember its better safe than sorry. Some trainers are against muzzles because they think it irritates the dog and makes it worse. It actually with time desensitizes them. I would rather have an irritated dog for awhile with a muzzle than an unpredicable dog without one. A 60 lb dog can do a lot of damage. Especially if it gets the idea it can get away with a bite. Usually it only gets worse if you let it go. Don't ignore the problem. Here are a few other threads that may be of help Doggie Bootcamp -hardcore NILIFDominanceI DEFINATELY say have the dog tested by a vet like Laura said. It could very well be a health issue that many vets over look. Some even refuse testing. Just ask Dobemom. After about...what was it? 4 or 5 different vets she finally found one that went through with her request and tested her dobe with aggression issues and found that she indeed had Thyroid problems which is a very normal sign in aggression cases. Thyroid test and full blood work up is a MUST with these problems and it is really easy to treat. Her dobe is so much better since she's being treated. And a trainer who deals specifically in aggression issues is definately on the right track. Stay away from trainers who use clickers and purely positive methods with this dog. You will be waisting your money and probably worsening the problem. More often than not it happens to make things worse when a dog suffers from these issues. I am the first person to to push people to do whatever possible training wise to rehabilitate their dogs. Every once and awhile though you come acrossed a dog that just isn't quite right in the head and there isn't much you can do to guarantee the saftey of all involved aside from using a muzzle. In most cases those are the times where training probably isn't going to help much and there isn't much you can do to manage an unpredicable dog. I would also go wire basket instead of the nylon. Dogs can eat and drink with the basket. It also allows them to pant which is a way to release heat since they can't perspire where the nylon or fabric ones don't. I hope you keep us informed and let us know how things are going with all this. I really wish you a lot of luck. Hopefully the trainers can give you some good help with this. It is a lot easier to get an idea of what you are dealing with in person.
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Post by Nicole on May 11, 2004 7:32:22 GMT -5
Welcome to the board. You have received excellent advice and I second what has been said. From your description of the dog (shy) and more particularly that she bit your father on the *back* of the leg, my first thought was that the aggression is at least in part (it is impossible to tell for sure over the internet) fear based. Fearful dogs almost always strike from behind. The genesis could be genetic, a lack of socialization, a bad experience...any number of reasons. Fear aggression is a difficult problem to overcome. So yes I think a trainer who understands aggression is a must. The dog has to be desensitized and very, very slowly socialized and also he has to have his confidence raised. As the others have said, you can help his confidence by engaging in a NILIF regimen as well as obedience training. The goal is to get to a point where the dog trusts you as alpha and trusts that you will take care of any situation that arises. Read the thread dogden.proboards21.com/index.cgi?board=Aggression&action=display&thread=1082560260There is an excellent post in that thread by Laura about desensitization of fear and by Aussienot re: the goal of leadership exercises with a fear aggressive dog. It pertains to dog aggression but the concept applies here as well. Only you can determine the risks involved in keeping this dog. It isn’t going to be an easy road to get to a point where he is trustworthy, if that is even possible. I strongly agree with the others to invest in a good wire basket muzzle (so the dog can drink and pant) and the dog should wear this anytime he is interacting with adults or children. I would also deny him access to other dogs. How old is the dog? Good luck to you and please keep us posted on your progress.
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Post by jstang18 on May 11, 2004 8:39:06 GMT -5
Thanks for everyone’s support it has been a long two days.
The Marley is around 3-4 years old looking at the teeth but we are not really sure. She had puppies 6 months before we adopted her (Marley). She was taken from a kill shelter in Georgia, when a great lady from the foster home saved her and her puppies from being put to death.
We have been talking to some other experts (The foster home, A Different Vet, a Trainer, and a personal friend that we respect as a dog person) to find out some information on her background and future options. It doesn't look good at this point. Since we don't have any history on the dog other than the six months prior to adoption we will never be sure how she will act in certain situations.
Thanks again for all your help, I'll keep you posted.
John
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Post by sibemom on May 11, 2004 15:04:27 GMT -5
You have gotten great advice. I really admire you for going as far as you have to save your dog. I do think dogs should be given every chance to overcome their behavior issues. As Brooke said this might not be a simple behavior problem. I think the vet check is the first place to start. I for one am an advocate for the wire basket muzzle. I did not get one for my dog because of aggresion. I bought it for peace of mind and to preserve the bond that my dog has with my 3 year old. If you take your time introducing it to your dog and especially in this case where some of this behavior might be fear based you will find this is a wonderful tool. I took a dog treat and held it at the end of the basket and coaxed him to put his nose in. I did this over several days and when he put his nose in with no hesitation I gently buckled it. Now when I bring it out he just puts his nose in and he gets a treat. Don't lose hope just yet. I have seen many a dog that people gave up on for this type of behavior and someone else took them and worked through it and fixed the problems pretty well. I am not saying I would trust a dog like this 100% but with time you should be able to manage it. Good luck and let us know how the vet visit checks out.
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Post by Willow on May 12, 2004 8:51:38 GMT -5
I am on the other side of the coin on this issue for several reasons.
As Nicki stated, the dog appears to be a fear biter, the attacks are unprovoked and as if it couldn't get worse, the dog attacks people she knows! Not only this, but she has people and dog aggression.
Will this dog ever be trustworthy? IMHO, "No". Can she be "managed"? Probably, "yes", but that will mean always wearing a muzzle, because remember, she bites people she knows and the attacks are unprovoked.
Are you willing to invest the time, energy and $$$$ into managing this dogs aggressivness, only to realize that if you let your guard down for one second, she could do serious harm to someone? Esp. to a child who cannot in anyway defend themselves against a dog this large and this aggressive? I feel people always come before an aggressive, dangerous dog.
Is it worth it to take the risks involved? Only you can decide that.
Of course you love your dog. But it's just as easy to love a dog that you don't have to fear, and there are millions of those type out there that are being pts every day, simply because there are no room at the shelter's for them.
After all. Shouldn't owning a dog also be enjoyable and relaxing, and there are many problems to owning a dog without having to be in constant fear that if you relax for one moment, it could have serious consequences for someone else and also for you?
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Post by jstang18 on May 12, 2004 10:05:52 GMT -5
We can not take the chance keeping Marley in an active environment we live in (kids an all sides) and feel safe. We have decided to return Marley to her Foster Home. It has been a very sad house the last three days...
It was all Marley day yesterday, we took 3 hour walk in the woods, she got all the treats she could handle and lots of belly rubs from My wife and I. It is going to be hard but I am returning her this afternoon. This is one of the hardest things decisions I ever made, but after weighing all the options my wife and I believe it is the only way.
Thanks for all your advice. This is a great message board; I plan on being an active member from here on.
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Post by Laura on May 12, 2004 11:40:15 GMT -5
Jstang, I just looked at your profile and saw that you're in Denville, I sent you a PM .
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Post by Brooke on May 12, 2004 20:35:34 GMT -5
I completely agree with what you said Loey....and Jstang, as hard as I know it was, I honestly think you did the right thing in this case. I'm really sorry for your loss. If you need to talk we are still here Take care...
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Post by Aussienot on May 12, 2004 21:37:42 GMT -5
Really, really hard call, and it took a lot of heart for you to do it. I'm happy that you plan to stay around the board, and look forward to getting to know you better.
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Post by sibemom on May 13, 2004 7:16:02 GMT -5
Yes I do think you are doing the right thing and I do agree with Loey. I just did not want to sound to negetive. I know it's hard but another dog will come into your life and hopefully one with less issues. You did your best and the right thing for the dog and the humans around you. I am glad too that you will be staying with the group. Looking forward to getting to know you better.
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