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Post by amyjo on Feb 20, 2004 13:11:46 GMT -5
It is a given that dog training advise over the internet is not alone going to solve an aggression problem and the right kind of in person professional intervention is a good idea....But to know what kind of help you need you have to educate your self about the issues and the kind of help that is available. Then you have to make an educated determination about whether and who to hire.
sooooo...I have given my freinds and neigbors a whole list of valuable doggie links including leerburg and this one.
I would like to have a frank discussion about what each of you would do in the case of "T-Bone". The dog featured in my post "Six stitches later".
Currently he is living a very structured life. He is either in his crate, peeing, eating or obeying a command.
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Post by amyjo on Feb 20, 2004 13:19:32 GMT -5
Every story needs pictures...This is T-Bone and his sister KC doing a long down on my back deck the last time I doggie sat.
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Post by amyjo on Feb 20, 2004 13:23:54 GMT -5
And because we have to tell the whole story - here is a pic of one of the holes in my arm...the other is lower and on the other side... So please - let's put our heads together and help this family make some good decisions. Thanks.
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Post by Laura on Feb 20, 2004 13:36:33 GMT -5
Eeewwww, !!!! Just kidding, that's really not that gross, Amyjo. It starts to get really gross in a day or two when it turns yellow and ooozy ;D. Ummm, yum . Beautiful pooches, the both of them. Background and history on both dogs would be helpful, tell your friends to come on over!
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Post by Richard on Feb 20, 2004 13:48:20 GMT -5
yeeeeeeeeeewooch.....'tis true, a picture is worth a thousand words...or six stitches in this case...
I am going to go back and read through the posts again and see what we can do...
-Richard
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Post by Richard on Feb 20, 2004 14:03:37 GMT -5
amyjo,
First off, I am glad you went back over and faced up to your fears about being there with Tbone and meeting him up close and personal. that took guts....I know that sounds funny but its like people who are afraid of flying or small spaces or those afraid of dogs...if they let thier fears overwhelm them (and thier subconscious) it will wash over into everyday life and mess up thier lives...good for you!
As for the basis of what happened, as another example, I know in our SAR group there is mostly GSD's and a few other breeds. We also have a healthy mix of males and females too. One day, late last fall, during the ob segment, 2 female GSD's who were about 1 foot apart, just leaped and started in on each other...no one knew what had sparked this aggression...the handlers were about 70 feet away and Dave the instructor was first on the spot and got between the 2 dogs...there was no injuries to either dog and we were all left wondering what started this as both dogs had been working near each other in close proximity all morning.
I would say that Nicki had some excellent points in her thread about the possibilities. I also think that the owners (and you) didn't overreact but took steps to ensure the dog was put back into a routine after what happened.
The fact also that he is very attentive to his handlers is interesting...amyjo, did he show any remorse after you intercepted his attack....what happened immediately after this? I guess I would also go as far as to ask how they (the handlers) treat thier dog as far as corrections and stuff like that..?
There could be some clues throughout the whole scenario that day and what has happened since then. I know I haven't offered much here, but I do hope we can move forward with some answers to these questions to clear up some misconceptions and verify the facts.
-Richard
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Post by amyjo on Feb 20, 2004 14:37:32 GMT -5
Okay I invited them again and said you guys wanted background.... Richard I will try to answer your specific questions below As you can imagine it was a fluster-cluck and for a while none of us was really sure what happened. We have since discussed and this is what we came up with.. We were all sitting on the floor with the dogs - it was kind of a lovin' pettin' free-for all... he was leashed I was sort of between him and K already. He lunged and I moved towards my dog kind of grabbing her in a hug around her neck. I ended up kind of on top of her with her head and shoulders under my upper body and my arms around her. Both of tbones owners reacted by pulling back on the leash - yelling no! He has a prong but wasn't wearing it. one of them checked on me - I told her I had been bitten and I thought it was bad... the other had his leash and took him to the kitchen to put him in his crate - like I said before - he let go - right away and his demeanor after the incident was submissive he did not continue lunging or fighting... she toolk him to his crate - his regular collar also came off at some point - but he went straight to his crate as he was told without the collar or leash. In general as far as training and corrections go - they are pretty good when specifically working OB - but around the house they are (or I should say were )kinda lax (sorry guys) He has a tab and a prong but doesn't wear it at all times and they are guilty of the common mistakes like telling him to do something multiple times before giving a correction or starting towards him to give the correction but not following through. He is verrry food motivated but even for treats his response times are painfully slow - if you say " down" it might take 5 seconds for him to respond. He kind of looks at you like "who me?" He is very sweet and lovable though and gives belly willingly when you pet him. I think it is this sweet side that suckered them into not being very stringent with the training.
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Post by jbell on Feb 20, 2004 15:15:22 GMT -5
Hi folks! Thanks for asking us to join...I'm sort of computer illiterate, so bear with me if this is discombobulated.
Everything Amy has relayed in her posts about Tbone and Six Stitches Later, we agree with.
Most importantly, we are very disappointed with ourselves for not being firmer with him from the get-go. As she said, we had gotten lax with him on corrections probably due to his loveable side. We feel we let him down in regards to his training, but its become very clear/very quickly that there cannot be a slip in his regimen from this point forward.
In any case, Tbone is a male Labmix who is about 3 years old (best we can tell from what we know). He is verrrry food driven as Amy states and Bone aggressive. Interestingly enough, he is not aggresive with his normal meals. He is almost like Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hide in that he can be the most lovealbe, needy, lazy, sissy-boy sometimes and then other times he can be aggressive. The aggression shows up when trying to take his bones away from him or when other dogs are around.
Tbone is not aggressive in this way with our other dog KC (petite female German Shorthair Pointer...also pound puppy, but very submissive with humans and other dogs...very gentle creature), but he came into the house second, so we think he knew that she belonged there. She will not, however, go after his food, though she will taunt and go after him physically during play. Its an intersesting/confusing relationship. They do play pretty rough, but it is usually KC who starts this. Tbone and KC have never left more than surface scrathces on each other...nothing even close to Amy's arm.
We don't know anything about Tbone's past other than he was supposedly left at the pound because his previous owners were moving. We all agree that there is probably more to the story than that.
With KC we know that she used to hunt with her former owner and that he had separated from his wife and was gone for 12-16 hours a day and didn't feel it was right to keep her locked up alone that long. The pound said it took him hours to actually leave her there and that he was heartbroken. She, it seems, had somewhat of a loving home prior to ours.
Not sure what else would help as far as background goes, but we're all ears and any thoughts/advice are welcome.
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Post by sibemom on Feb 20, 2004 15:28:24 GMT -5
I am sorry if I sound like I missed something but is Tbone always aggresive to people? Or is it just a dog on dog situation? I guess from what I read from Amy's post about the bite that the aggresion was towards her dog and not her. Correct me if I am wrong please. She got bit cause she was a good Mom and was saving her BABY ;D And that wound is GROSS YUCK! I understand about the bones, what about toys? It sounds from what you have posted that your dogs get along fine except for rough play but they seem to have worked that out between themselves. I got a world of great info on Leerburg but you have to sift through the ego's Has anything like this ever happened before with any other dogs or any other humans?
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Post by amyjo on Feb 20, 2004 15:32:13 GMT -5
Tbone has never been aggressive to a person as far as I know - and yes he was going for Kylie when I put my arm in the way
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Post by Richard on Feb 20, 2004 15:42:17 GMT -5
jbell,
Welcome aboard, I think you guys got the right atttitude and are going to get this sorted out.
My GSD had a bad dog vs dog agression problem...it was my fault, I let things go on too long when he was younger. Through an excellent trainer and non-stop work (and hey, a prong collar), Rocky knows now, that there is no reason for him to be that way...why, because its in his system, it will never leave. I manage this urge of his now...through being a firm alpha dog and motivational corrections, he understands it is in his best interest not to upset me. This aggression is seen so infrequently now, but we are still always on alert (as we are for everything when we're out walking..we live in a particulary stupid area for dog owners...).
As we spoke on another forum, its like smoking and quiting. You'll never go back but the thought is always there...sounds like Tbone could be in this same mindset. Is this bad...in the wrong owners hands, yes. I think the problem was there before (and no I am no expert) and I would be doing the things you are doing now and continue. Obviously he'd never bit anyone before and I bet he was just as shocked when amyjos arm came across his mouth...it is all these factors that we can look at and say, it was an isolated incident, if he plays that way with his housemate, perhaps it was time to mix it up with Kacey.
IMHO, I would keep going with the structure, get back into the routine of compiance on commands, no second requests and you will have to keep an eye on him more closely when with other dogs(or not at all for a while).
Just a few thoughts..
-Richard
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Post by sibemom on Feb 20, 2004 15:54:36 GMT -5
Ok my brain has returned ;D. So exactly what is it that you are trying to fix? The dog aggresion? Was this the first time Tbone was ever aggresive to another dog? If so I guess I myself wouldnt get to bent about it right now. I would crank up the OB use NILF and make sure that he knows the leave it command. He would also have his prong collar on at all times unless he was unsupervised or crated. Nicki re capped this so well with her theory of why this happened. Many dogs are protective of their bones, it is great though that he is not food aggresive. I had a dog that was fine with food and toys but give that dog a bone and she turned into a demon. I only let her have the bone while I was holding it and worked very slowley with her. Yes I had to sit with slober all over my hands while she chewed but in a short time I could take it out of her mouth again while she had it by herself. Everytime I was holding it and went to pull it away if she snarled I corrected and took it away for 2 days, then we tried again. Be really consistant with this dog and pay attention to what sets off unwanted behavior. Another thought to is the use of Homeopathic Treatment for Behavior issues. I am not sorry at all that I went that route for my ADHD pup. Vaccinosis can cause behavior issues along with health problems. Loey will get in on this soon I am sure to back me up.
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Post by jbell on Feb 20, 2004 16:07:00 GMT -5
Richard, thanks for the words of encouragement! That is part of my underlying concern with tbone....that he has this portion of his nature that has the potential to be "evil" for lack of a better way to put it. I am willing to work with him on it, but am not sure it can ever be completely corrected. Anyone agree or disagree?
As for controlling his environment...in my mind, he cannot (I REPEAT, CANNOT) be around other dogs (other than KC. We know this is the main area where we have seen TEXT aggression! I am not willing to take that risk or to put him in that situation again.
Umm, do I think he needs much improvement on obeying our commands the first time around? ABSOLUTELY. Will this make me more confident in him? ABSOLUTELY. Am I worried about his aggression in any circumstance? ABSOLUTELY. Because I think part of what led to the whole situation is that we were fooled by his soft side...we let our guards down and let the love take up most of our brain, where his potential aggressive side needs to take the forefront for safety's sake.
We will maintain the OB and NILIF better this time and will post about our results further on down the line!
Thanks for the advice and feel free to critique and keep it coming!
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Post by sibemom on Feb 20, 2004 16:31:34 GMT -5
jbell, Your plan sounds wonderful, and I am sure you can get Tbone to where you want him to be. Richard offered me some advice once about Blade. Blade was never dog aggresive unless challanged , and one time at OB class a dog got lose and came towards us snarling snapping just alround nuts Well even after popping his prong several times and yelling LEAVE IT LEAVE IT DAMN YOU LEAVE IT . He still went out in front of me to defend. Richard had told me how Rocky is trained to circle behind him when situations like that come up and that is now the way Blade is trained. When we encounter other dogs that are loose or on leash with owners that have no clue he is told LEAVE IT and if the dog comes up to us he automaticly circles behind me and allows me to handle the situation. I think you will do just fine with Tbone and yes you are right about not allowing anything no matter how sweet he is. Keep us posted.
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Post by Nicole on Feb 20, 2004 16:36:03 GMT -5
Welcome Jbell. I am glad you came. Amyjo, that wound looks really gross. I had to say that. ;D I think you have two problems here. One concerning the aggression over the bone and the other the dog aggression. Like the others have said bones can cause serious aggression to rear its ugly head. This dog should not have any bones at all until he learns his place in the pack. By acting aggressive he is telling you to get away from his bone. However, he is not allowed to tell "Alpha" that ever with regard to any item. Before you deal specifically with that aggression, you have to convince him that you are the boss. This involves strict OB training and a consistent regimen of NILIF. (see NILIF thread) He must learn to drop it and leave it. When you reintroduce the bone and he fails to comply or acts aggressively, he should be dealt a level 20 correction, out of 1 to 10 correction. He must know that hell hath no greater fury then Alpha getting growled at over a bone. When he gives/leaves the bone willingly after a command, take it, hold it and then give it back. Let him chew. Repeat the exercise, take it, hold it and give it back. Then put it away for good. Repeat the exercise often. This worked for me. A level 20 correction and letting the dog know that I am not a food or bone stealer. But that if I want it, he had better give it to me when I ask. As to the dog aggression, some dogs are just dog aggressive. Your dog was not posturing here. He meant to bite. If it were my dog, I wouldn't allow him access to any dog under any circumstance until his OB was 100% and then only under extremely controlled circumstances for the rest of his life. He must be at a point where he will leave it (like Rocky) or come even if there is another dog. That takes time and is not always possible. He may never be able to frolick carefree with other dogs. That is the consequence of dog aggression. It is your responsibility to make sure he is not ever in a situation where he can harm a dog. Now this present situation may have been a reaction based on territorial/pack instincts, but it is still aggression and I would not trust him around other dogs. But that is me. Reign, my dog (well my brothers dog) is generally dog friendly. However, if he is approached by a dog who is attempting to dominate him (Reign is over 130lbs, but you would be surprised at the spunk and guts of smaller dogs), he will first ignore and then react aggressively. Consequently, because he is capable of inflicting very serious injury, he was/is never allowed to run free unsupervised with a bunch of strange dogs because I never knew if a dog is going to set him off. His Ob was such that I could trust him to come if I was there and I was always on the look out for dominating males. It was just part of our life. I think a professional one on one trainer who is experienced with both possession/dominance aggression and dog aggression would be of enormous benefit to you and your dog BTW, both of your dogs are beautiful. That is a great photo.
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