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Post by bobbenson on May 20, 2007 23:12:40 GMT -5
My wife made the mistake of feeding our soon to be 9 mo boxer a piece of her mango and a month earlier another melon piece from the couch where she usually sits while eating. The dog likes fruit. We are in a small apartment and don't have a dining room table. I eat at my desk which is in a corner of the living room and my wife usually eats while sitting on the couch. I never give the dog people food.
If my wife takes food to the couch the dog will immediately go and beg or actually put his head on the couch looking for the food. If I stand up, he immediately goes to the other side of the room. If you recall from other posts, my wife has been unwilling to take an active role in dog training.
What I would like to do is proximity train the dog when we are eating. By that, I would like the dog to see that she is eating and stay 5' away from the couch. I don't really care if he stares and drools from 5 feet away.
If I were to sit on the couch and eat, he would come as close as he can until he gets a "no" from me or if I stand up.
Ways I have thought of approaching this is to have the dog sit 5 feet away when she is eating. I want to work on getting him to sit for longer periods of time, so this could have a dual benefit. Other thought is to put a leash and prong collar on him while eating to make the process easier.
As far as his general obedience, he heels and sits in the absence of extreme distraction. While on a walk, if someone is coming with a dog the other way I have him sit and he will let them pass. If I heel by an approaching person he will keep and eye on them and maybe stop, but a correction or two and he "pretty much" heels at that point. If a dog or person comes up to him he will jump up to play or say hi. At that point with a few corrections I can usually get him to sit, but not for long.
Any suggestions?
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Post by Aussienot on May 26, 2007 0:02:27 GMT -5
To train this, I would put an eyebolt into a wall wherever you want the dog to go when you are eating. Secure a leash to the eyebolt. Put a mat or a blanket on the floor in this area. Eventually you will be able to send the dog away to this spont, and expect him to wait until you release him, but in the beginning being physically unable to reach you is an important concept.
So you sit down with food. When he approaches you, stand up and growl a protective "MY FOOD". Give him a look that could kill. If he moves away, sit down and start eating. If he does not move away, or if he trys to challenge you, secure your food out of his reach, and take him over the the eyebolt. Clip a leash to his collar. Put a mat or towel in this area, and direct him to drop onto the mat. Don't be too fussed if he gets up again. After a while he will learn that settling comfortably is in his best interest.
Go back to your chair and finish eating. Leave a tiny bite for your dog. When you are finished, go to him, feed him the treat on the mat, and release the clip.
Do this consistently, and also clip him up while your wife has food. It is really important that no one ever feeds him while they are eating. If he is consistently denied the chance to beg, and if the only way he gets the food is through waiting patiently, he will stop begging.
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Post by bobbenson on May 27, 2007 1:30:21 GMT -5
Thanks Aussienot.
The problem is a little more critical, I think. When he thinks that I don't have control, he gets into trouble. If I am in the bathroom, he waits until I start to xxx and he knows I can't move easily for 20 seconds or so and goes running and gets something off the sofa, a shoe, or something else he knows he is not supposed to have. The instant I reenter the room, he drops the item he knows he is not supposed to have and lays down and looks at me.
Earlier today I bought a shock collar on ebay. It has various shock settings and a noise. I didn't do a lot of research on the best collar, I just wanted one that had various intensity settings.
My intention is this: He certainly knows what is good and bad. For my first dog, I set up mirrors and had the dog sit. When he moved, I went over to him and corrected him. Eventually, I had a dog that would sit for 20 minutes (literally).
I have a dog that knows that when I am sitting at my desk, I can't do much. I also have a badly sprained ankle at the moment so that doesn't help. As soon as I stand up he immediately quits doing bad behavior. He is not allowed in the bedroom. If he sneaks into the bedroom he can hear the creak my chair makes when I stand up and comes running into the living room. If he has a shoe in his mouth and I stand up, he drops the shoe. If he has one of his toys in his mouth and I stand up, he doesn't drop it, he just wants to play. He knows what he can have / do and is pushing the limits.
My thought is to set up some mirrors so I can see him and use the shock collar as a tool to make him aware he needs to behave even if I am not at his side.
By the way, he is heeling great, thanks to a lot of advice on this board and really is doing quite well. I do need to get him to quit playing games with me though when he knows that I'm at a distance.
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Post by sibemom on May 27, 2007 5:57:07 GMT -5
E Collar is a good tool, but do more research on the proper way to use it. I bought my DIL an e collar for her GSD. Her problem was that she is JUST NOT ALPHA ENOUGH FOR HIM so he was starting to be DOOGIE FROM HELL She has had great success and now is getting that upper hand with him. I explained to her that this tool was to give her a bit more re enforcement of commands and it has worked well. I think that is a very interesting thought about the mirrors, never thought that one myself basicly if you do that you are going to teach the dog that the action is what caused the correction and almost taking you out of the picture and that's ok. Right now he understands if you CATCH HIM, SEE HIM, a correction will come, this way he will learn that a bad action is going to cause a negative correction. Sometimes I like that theory best. I know there are times here where I have done something similar where I correct with out saying a word so the dog thinks the ACTION is what caused the correction and not me. Like I said research the proper use of E Collar a good place to go is www.loucastle.com. Uncle Lou is a great source for e collar training. Good Luck and ZAP AWAY J/K
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Post by bobbenson on May 27, 2007 11:57:28 GMT -5
Thanks sibemom. I'll read through the site before starting to use the collar. I had one before, but it's been so long I don't know what I did.
One interesting side note. One of my dogs liked to get into plants and flower beds years ago. I bought an electric fence charger. By that, I mean the ones they used to keep cattle from getting out on farms. I put a thin wire, barely visible, around all of my flower beds etc. and hooked it up. Once the dog got zapped once, he never touched them again. He knew it was the wire, though, so I couldn't take the wire down. I got shocked by the thing once. It was a pretty potent shock.
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Post by bobbenson on May 28, 2007 2:16:34 GMT -5
OK Sybermom, I read through the ecollar articles on the link in your posts. Very interesting read!! Leaves me with a few questions though.
1. If I say sit, heel, whatever, he does it. If he knows that I can't enforce that, he pushes his limits. Am I the alpha?
2. The link you posted had some very good info. I would certainly gone about things all wrong. He suggests using the ecollar starting with training to come "here". Then he suggests going to sit and then to down. Heel was part of the here process.
At this stage of the game, a 9 month old puppy, sit is easy, but sit and stay sitting doesn't work. Since the dog really understands sit, it seems logical to me to use the ecollar to reinforce sit as a starting point.
For example, with the ecollar set on a low threshold I say sit and press the ecollar button until he sits. When he sits I release the button and give praise. He will sit from across the room so I don't necessarily need to be next to him.
He doesn't sit for long. To me, sit is the same thing as stay. Can't move much while you are sitting. When he moves, I would say sit again and press the ecollar button again until he complies. That would probably be instant. I would grow this behavior until I can go into the other room and keep an eye on him with a mirror. When he gets up from the sit, I would press the ecollar button and say sit. He's going to be saying to himself "how did he know I moved".
I would move from there to come and heel as described in your loucastle link. I know this is the opposite as Loucastle describes, but it seems logical to reinvorce what the dog is confident in first rather than start with something he is less confident in ie come vs sit.
My biggest problem is his begging and trying to get food off the couch while my wife is eating there. I suspect this is the last thing I should tackle. I should get the dog used to the shock collar first and then go after the most significant problem second.
The question then becomes: The collar is being used as a low intensity correction for sit, stay, come, heel. All of which the dog is good or ok at at this point from standard prong collar techniques. Now we are attacking something that he is intentionally doing when he knows he can. That is, I'm sitting on the toilet, he immediately goes and gets my wifes shoe and plays with it. He doesn't do this when I'm mobile. He knows he can get away with this at this moment. Should I set up a mirror when I am or he thinks I am immobilized and up the shock level? At this point the shock is not just an attention getter, its at a minor pain threshold.
The first stages of getting him used to the collar seem obvious and logical. Does my last suggestion make sense or is there a better method? He really is doing good for a pet / puppy. I just don't want to do something stupid.
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Post by Aussienot on Jun 3, 2007 19:16:44 GMT -5
I think you are talking about two conflicting training tactics. In the first one, you are using the simulation (not pain) of the collar to shape behavior. You are using negative reinforcement to gain off lead compliance to known commands.
The "escape" method of ecollar use that Lou Castle advocates is based on the dog understanding that he can "turn the collar off". You press the button then give the command, and continue stimulation until the dog complies. The dog learns that he will be stimulated until he sits. He begins to sit quicker to stop the stim quicker.
Once the dog grasps this concept, you give the command before you press the stim. If the dog sits quickly enough, he beats the stim, and the dog begins to chose quick compliance to escape the stimulation.
Using this training method, the dog should not associate the collar with bad things happening or unfair corrections. The dog has some control over or not the collar comes on.
What you are talking about in the second scenario, is bad behavior when you are unable to get to the dog. It that case, you are using the collar as positive punishment. You are setting the dog up to fail, and then providing a remote correction when he chooses to mouth the shoes. Action followed by negative consequence. Read the information on the Lou Castle site on Crittering, because that's basically what you are trying to achieve - avoidance training.
If you want to use the collar for this purpose, then use it for this purpose only. Don't mix escape training and avoidance training.
The dog will be very confused and you are likely to create learned helplessness. You can seriously break your dog's spirit by use of the ecollar if you use it for punishment and for training.
What you'll need to work out is when to put the collar on. Are you going to leave it on him all day, or only put it on when you are setting up the shoe scenario? There are problems with leaving it on all day, and if you only pop it on when you are likely to shock him, he is going to become collar smart.
A much better method in my opinion is to limit the amount of house freedom he has. Overall it sounds like you are doing a good job of training and his behavior is pretty good for a young spirited dog. I think you could take some of the pressure off of him by do more to manage his behavior.
Don't allow him to get into trouble in the first place and then figure out how to correct him. Make the right choice easy and give him a chance to be a good dog. Clever use of the crate or a tie down spot as I suggested earlier is a non-conflict way of riding out his adolescence.
For improving his focus on you when under distraction, I can recommend the Grip, Drive and Focus video from Leerberg.com.
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Post by bobbenson on Jun 5, 2007 3:07:34 GMT -5
I read the article on Crittering and will go back and reread it.
I have used the collar for 1 week now. I put it on him when I get up and take him out in the morning. That is a very short walk as he does his thing very quickly. I try not to give any commands during this walk so I can avoid using the collar. I keep the collar on him until I go to bed. I haven't seen any signs of irritation. I have found that in a calm state, a stimulation of just under 20 works. If he is wound up, I might have to increase that to a 25 or so. I try to error on the lower side.
I started by working on come and following Lou Castle's plan. Low constant stimulations after saying come while softly reeling the dog in on a long leash. I had not worked with the dog on come much prior to this. I didn't end up with a Velcro dog, but it worked quite quickly. I did that for two days. Then I worked on sit.
Sit worked well. What has happened however, is he gets confused between sit and come. I just noticed this yesterday. I don't think he fully understands come. When I was working with him today, I would say come and reel him in while pressing the constant stimulation button. Yesterday, however, we were at a friends house with another dog. I would say come and he would sit. He was confused. I quit giving commands when I saw this.
I think this week I am going to try to use the collar for training come only. In the absence of distractions, when I say sit he sits; when I say heel, he heels. Most of this comes from prong collar training which is what I have been using for two months (prior to getting the ecollar).
During the last week I also gave stimulations for heel when he was falling out of position. He understands heel and this doesn't seem to be an issue. In the absense of distraction, he heels well, so if I keep him from distractions, I should be able to avoid the need for a stimulation during heel.
I'm going to work on come so he is confident in that command before pushing forward.
Now on to the begging, shoe problem. Last week I did use the stimulation while saying "no" when he pushed his limits. For example, I went into the restroom and could see him from a mirror. He immediately went to a shoe. I forget if I said no and then hit the stim, or just hit the stim until he dropped the shoe. I also used the same strategy for when he approaches the couch while my wife is eating something. I say no and hit stim. He backs off and I release the stim. He has reacted well to this. Dramatically less couch begging.
My logic in this is that come, sit, heel, no, are all commands. If I say "no" it means don't do that. And in most cases he will know what he is doing wrong. Actually in all cases because I wouldn't use the stim in a "no" situation if I didn't feel he knew what he was doing was wrong.
I'm going back to reread the crittering section. But, do you really think that "no" and stimulation is that different than "come" and stimulation when the dog knows that he is doing something wrong and he just had the command "no"? It seems to be working???
Like I said, I am going to just work on come for a week or so after the confusion he had yesterday. The confusion came in a distracted environment, but it certainly was confusion.
BTW, I do try to crate him to avoid problems. I am home all the time, working from the house and like to let him get the little exercise he can free in the living room where my office is though. The biggest problem is the begging / encroaching thing when someone is eating on the couch (remember we don't have a dining room table).
Thanks for all the advice. I will also check out the Leerberg video you recommended. I haven't bought anything from him as yet, but I have read and reread his site.
Now its 4am. I'm going for a quick dog walk and off to bed.
Really pleased in general how things are going... thanks in a great deal to the advice I've had on this site.
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Post by rogerb on Aug 12, 2007 17:55:01 GMT -5
I have the Leerburg video and find it excellent...takes a few watchings to take it all in, probably I now have a (previously) constantly pulling and "no recall if I don't feel like it!" Malinois x GSD who walks off-lead and comes when called, or, if she's distracted, almost always only using the 'page' function (a buzz on the collar, no stim). I only use above Level 1 on my Innotek collar if she does something 'anti-social', like lunging towards leashed dogs showing aggression to her .... even then a sharp word is usually sufficient to stop her without a stim. My wife cannot believe the transformation, and I am really pleased.... she's a clever dog who learns very quickly I am not a fan of escape training.
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