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Post by bobbenson on Mar 27, 2007 0:56:25 GMT -5
For something like sit, you shouldn't repeat a command twice. How about Heel. The difference is sit is one action. Heel is an ongoing action.
With my now 7 mo puppy, I find myself saying "heel" initially during a training walk. Then out of sheer reaction, I will correct with a prong collar and say heel in that order when the dog doesn't heel. I find myself correcting a lot and saying heel a lot. The thing is, after the first "heel", I am correcting and then saying the word "heel" in that order.
The dog has been told to heel once. Should I repeat? Is the correction prior to the command a bad thing? It's a reaction on my part, but do I need to train myself not to do that??
Related issue: On a recent Cesar show, he said the corrections should never be when the dog is in front. He also said the corrections should be to the side or up if the dog is not in front of you.
I'm doing the change speed, direction, etc thing for heeling and it's getting better. It's frustrating, but heel is getting better. He doesn't pull hard, but he does like to walk in front of me.
What do others here think about the never correct thing when the dog is in front as Cesar said.
|| Just a comment - It's to easy to watch something on that show and take it out of context. I think you need to be really careful that you use his techniques in the manner and situation they are intended. That is not always clear on the TV show because it is cut and edited for TV!!!
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Post by sibemom on Mar 27, 2007 6:30:58 GMT -5
I must have missed that episode I am not sure what he meant by not correcting the dog when it's in front of you I guess with heel there could be several takes on it. What I do is start out and tell the dog to heel. Then if they move out of position I stop get them back into the heel position and repeat. So yes I guess I do repeat the command BUT only after I STOP and start over. I do not keep walking and issueing the command I make it a point to STOP. It would serve no purpose to let the dog forge ahead and keep saying heel and tugging on the pinch they don't get that Then when they are back in position that is when you work your collar to make sure they stay in the heel, by just using very light pops everytime they try to move head. With a pup you will have to repeat the command several times because untill they understand where heel is, but it is still best to STOP put them into position and repeat. I use a pinch collar but I also use loose leash techniques so that I rarely have to correct with the collar, but if I am not getting their attention then the pinch comes in handy. To correct when there in front well I DO. If I am using a pinch collar and they forge ahead of me and if the initial pop that they do to themselves does not bring them back then YEAH I pop the collar get them back to my side and say HEEL then continue. I don't undestand about not correcting when they are in front because you don't want them there maybe he is saying that because you can't get that side pull if they are in the front I don't know. But this is how I do it.
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Post by Dom on Mar 27, 2007 7:37:32 GMT -5
I don't recall that episode either. I feel like Sibemom. I am not sure why he would say not to correct while in front. The only thing I can think of is the side correction (like Sibemom stated) and maybe him telling the client that meant don't correct "after" the dog starts pulling ahead but "before" the dog starts to pull. Meaning keep the dog beside you and correct when he first starts to pull rather than when the dog is 1 foot ahead of you with constant tension on the leash. If you have constant tension the dog will pull. What kind of dogs were on the episode? That is how I remember his shows. Either way, I do what Sibemom does. If Elsie starts to get into a tug of war with me I stop what I am doing and start over. I don't use a heel command. Elsie and Sadie are expected to walk beside me, while on leash, until I release them. A verbal warning works for Sadie if she begins to move ahead of me. Elsie requires a leash correction.
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Post by willow on Mar 27, 2007 8:44:58 GMT -5
I learned the "heel" somewhat differently than Sibemom and Dom. Unlike Dom, I do use the "heel", because my dogs are off leash a lot and at times I want them to "come to heel", so at those times I will say, "Kara, heel", and she will come to "heel" from where ever she is and stay there until I realease her. To teach the puppy/dog the "heel", I start the dog out at the "sit" on my left side. Tell the dog to "heel" and step forward on the left leg. I will give a leash "pop" to get the dog moving if it does not immediately start walking with me, and will also use voice encouragement, i.e. "come on, HEEL" etc. Once we are moving forward, I do not stop walking, except to practice the automatic "sit". I use "heel" and leash "pops", as Sibemom said, to encourage them to stay at my side, but what I do more is a lot of direction change and "about turns". (turning and going in the opposite direction.) I also use my voice a lot to encourage the pup/dog to stay at my side, by repeating "heel" a lot and by also patting my leg to show them where they should be. Basically the only time I use a leash pop is if they are ignoring me or get way out of position...(what's that over there? a squirrel? Let's go check it out!") ;D When that happens, I will do an "about turn". That will always get their attention back where it should be. At first as long as they are not lagging way behind, forging ahead or to the side too far, I mainly use my "happy" voice and leg pats to get them into/keep their position. When they are in the correct position I praise, praise, praise! I usually tell my dogs, "Yes. Good". As I said, I do not stop walking when the dog gets out of position, but I do change direction a lot and do a lot of "about turns". (turning and going in the opposite direction.) I always repeat the "heel" command when ever I am changing direction, doing about turns etc. until the dog fully understands what I want. On the about turns, in the beginning, I "walk" the turn and give the dog the chance to "catch up" to me on a loose leash, while I repeat "heel", in a happy voice, pat my leg etc. so the dog knows what I want. Your goal is to always have slack in the leash, except when you are correcting and then it is a quick "pop"/slack, but if you change direction a lot and do a lot of "about turns" it usually keeps their attention and they quickly learn not to tighten up the leash. I also always use a "walking stick" when ever I am walking my dogs, so when we practice the "heel", if they should want to get out in front of me, I have the stick in my right hand and just move it in front of them to remind them not to get out ahead, while repeating the "heel". No leash "pop" needed. This also works really well when teaching two dogs to stay at your side in tandem if one or both want to get out in front.
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Post by Dom on Mar 27, 2007 9:45:58 GMT -5
Willow brings up a good point about changing directions. I do that a lot when our dogs attention begins to stray. On another board they suggested I run (or quick pace walk) in the opposite direction when the dog focuses on something besides me. The dog hits the end of the leash, correction, then returns to my side. Although this technique did work with Sadie, Willow pointed out a flaw. I tried it Willow's way and it did work better. I stopped running but continued to change directions and praise when they came to my side. Our dogs are much more responsive and are glad to stay with us without having to correct with a leash much. Both dogs do get distracted but a few times changing directions normally brings the attention back to us.
I am not sure why I never used a heel command. I do say "Lets go" when we first exit the house and after potty and sniffing breaks to bring Sadie back to my side. I guess that can be considered a heel command although I don't say it during the walk. Most of the time the walks are pretty quiet except for the praise and occasional "eh". I have never trained a dog for off leash. It isn't allowed in our area.
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Post by Dom on Mar 27, 2007 9:52:20 GMT -5
I tried it Willow's way and it did work better. I just caught that. Think you might write a book Willow?
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Post by bobbenson on Mar 27, 2007 21:06:27 GMT -5
I can't remember which Cesar episode it was. I had it recorded and watched it the other night - late, but deleted it. It was a comment that he made in passing. I think thats one of the problems with his show. They edit out a lot of details. I'm pretty sure it was because he felt the side correction or an upward correction worked but a correction from the back was less effective.
To clarify, the dog isn't dragging me down the street. When he is energetic he will constantly walk a little faster than I do. That quickly makes the leash taught. If he is sleepy, he stays at my side. If I say heel, he will instantly look at me or come to my side. The problem is that if he is energetic he will quickly return to a taught leash position. Again, not dragging me, but there is no slack in the leash.
From your responses, it sounds to me like we have a problem with the dog owner (me) being lazy here. To quote sibemom
"So yes I guess I do repeat the command BUT only after I STOP and start over."
Since the dog slowly gets out of position (one second, but its not a charge), I am allowing that. I am changing direction and changing pace, but I think I'm being far to inconsistent with that. If I understand your responses correctly, I should never allow the dog to be out of position by either stopping, changing direction, or correcting. I'm doing that, but I'm not consistent.
Let's take an afternoon walk as an example. I work out of the house and may be waiting for a phone call, but I know he needs to go out to do his thing. So we walk about a block to an area where he can " do his thing". He is awake, so he is in a hurry. I'm waiting for a business phone call, so I need to get back to the apartment to answer the phone. In a walk like this, I do some of the start, stop, sit, turn around stuff, but I'm rushed, so I'm probably far to inconsistent. I do think, however, that he knows where he is supposed to be.
After writing the above, I took him for a walk. One additional thing. If I walk verrrrry slow, he will never pull on the leash. He will be bored and look around,but not make the leash taught. He pays more attention to me when walking verrrrrry slow.
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Post by willow on Mar 28, 2007 7:53:20 GMT -5
I just caught that. Think you might write a book Willow? I thought about it years ago, but now we have "Cesar's Way", so I think I waited too long. Thanks for the title though, and if I ever decide to do it I will also "acknowledge" you, Dom, for giving me the title.
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Post by bobbenson on Apr 25, 2007 12:04:38 GMT -5
Just an update on this one:
I think its a combination of dog getting older, dog owner skills (I'm getting better at correction timing and style), and trying a few different things, but heeling is really getting better, at least for a pet dog. Based on what I saw on the leeburg site, praise right after a correction is a good thing when the dog complies. Applying this to heeling seems to have worked well. If the dog moves in front, I correct. When he comes back to my side after a correction I praise the dog.
This is the problem with being a dog owner. A trainer deals with puppies daily. A dog owner has a puppy to train every 10 years. You get out of practice or forget what you did 10 years ago.
Thanks everybody for your help and insight.
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Post by Dom on Apr 25, 2007 14:31:08 GMT -5
Congrats! I am glad the training is coming along well and you found a technique that worked for you.
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