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Post by aheller on Mar 12, 2007 15:49:04 GMT -5
Hello,
Not sure if this should be in this forum or the Aggression forum, but figured I would start here. We had a couple of weird incidents with Charlie this weekend and I really need some input on what happened and what to do about it.
Some setup:
We have some friends (my girlfriend's sister and brother-in-law) with a Border Collie mix (Jack). He has always been a great dog. Jack and Charlie have met before. The first time was a few weeks ago and that went pretty well. They had a little clash with some growling and stuff, but I am sure that it was just posturing and after a few minutes, they calmed down and started playing together and had a good time.
The two things that happened this weekend.
1) When we went to their house, the dogs were fine at first. We gave them each a chewy bone to play with and they did fine at first, but when I went to get Charlie's bone from him and move him, he bared his teeth and started growling. I stood up with a dumbfounded look on my face, at which point my girlfriend went to get his bone and he went crazy. He started barking and growling and tried to bite her hand. This has NEVER happened before. I make it a point to try to take his food or toy away from him while he is eating or chewing to see if he would have this kind of reaction and he never has before.
2) After we got took his bone away, he was fine. Maybe a little bummed out that we took his bone, but seemed to be fine with it. However, a few minutes later he went over to Jack to see what was going on (he did not make a move to take his bone or anything, he just walked near him, but not sure if that matters in a dog's brain) and that's when Jack went crazy. He bared his teeth, growled and pounced, trying to bite Charlie. Charlie was backing up, howling and crying, trying to get away from him, but Jack continued to move forward, snarling and growling and trying to bite him (not sure if he actually did bite him. No injuries or blood or anything like that). I jumped between them and seperated them (not sure if that was the right move or not, but it was a little scary to see another dog jump on our pup with teeth bared) and Charlie was not happy to be in the same vicinity as him for the rest of the time we were there. Immediately after the incident, he went into the kitchen pantry and refused to come out for a long time. Eventually he did, but was pretty antsy the rest of the day.
After that instance, Charlie was being a little strange with me later in the day. He kept barking and growling at me at different times for (seemingly) no reason.
So what do I make of this? I am a little worried for a few reasons, but I am not sure what the root cause of the ruckus was. I would like them to be friendly together, as we spend a lot of time with these people and the dogs are part of that time together, but I don't want to force the issue and I really want to figure out what happened and what we can do to address it.
If nothing else, what should we do as owners (or pack leaders) when something like either of these incidents occur?
Does anyone have any ideas or input? Please, let me know if there's any more info I can provide. This really worries me.
Thanks!
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Post by Dom on Mar 13, 2007 8:57:07 GMT -5
This reminds me of a story Nicole mentioned in a post a few days ago. He will probably pick up some bad house manners from the older dog and being in an unstructured environment. You will just have to work hard on undoing that. Also, be mindful that pups learn quickly from older dogs. It stinks really. When Reign was a pup he shared very very well with other dogs that were his friends. We played ONCE with a grown dog who was aggressive when anyone approached his toy. Guess what happened. My dog copied him and I could never trust him again with a toy near another dog. I undid it to some extent but in my heart he remained untrustworthy. I am at work right now so I don't have much time to post. Not all of the articles relate to you but they are interesting reads. Signs to watch for: www.flyingdogpress.com/aggreasons.htmlMain index: www.flyingdogpress.com/artlibreg.htmI have had my dogs growl at me before. It hasn't happened much but it has happened. After getting over the initial shock, I was pissed. I know that is not the emotion I am suppose to convey but sometimes it is hard not to. I have take a few deep breaths before I continue with the dog. If I stay irritated it makes matters worse. 90% of the time the growling was caused by resource guarding. All chewies, toys, and any item my dog could consider valuable enough to resource guard was removed. They had to earn them after that point. I am sure you backed off when Charlie growled. I would have. Not out of fear, but it surprising me. In that moment Charlie won a small battle and learned that "I can make him leave me alone (even for a short period of time) if I growl". His chewie gave him power. When this happens do not just take the toy or chewie. You have to make him relinquish it. I normally would step forward and put my foot over a corner of the bone so they couldn't drag it away. Also realize that I did this with dogs less than a year old and was not worried about them hurting me with a bite. I would probably use an object to block a bite if it was concern. They will protest but in a dogs world ownership of "space" is everything. Wait until he backs off or gives in then remove the chewie. You do not need to say anything. Just stay calm and claim the chewie. I am sure Jack was giving Charlie warnings about getting too close and that was why he attacked Charlie when Charlie didn't pay attention to them. Charlie retreated and that gave Jack power. The first article I linked gives some of the signs. I will try to post more later. For now, remove all prized items until you re-establish a relationship with Charlie. Never have any chewie or toy around when the other dog is around and keep them both on a leash to correct them easily. It may not be possible for the dogs to get along like you would like. A warning sign for me would be that Jack did not stop his reprimand of Charlie once Charlie backed off. Personally, I would not trust Jack to interact with my dogs and if they had to be together I would be there 100% to correct either dog. If your friend does not have the same views as you do about dog training this can be difficult. If you share common ground you may be able to work together toward a goal. At the very least, Charlie and Jack should be able to tolerate being around each other even if they don't play like old buddies. Remember the chewie = power. If there is something to fight over then it is more likely to happen. Charlie is nearing the beginning of his teenage years. He will test you. Make sure that he knows that you are in control. Sounds like doggie boot camp time. sonic.net/~cdlcruz/GPCC/library/alpha.htm
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Post by kaos on Mar 13, 2007 22:30:09 GMT -5
Hi, the way I see it there are two issues going on here:
1) Resource guarding issues between the two dogs I totally agree with Dom on this one, remove all temptation in terms of bones, toys, chews, even too much attention from people can spark off a disagreement. Don't leave to dogs alone unsupervised - if you do need to feed them or want to provide a chew or a bone simply pop them in different rooms until they have finished.
2) Resource guarding from people This one, although a very common problem, you do need to address in my opinion. I teach my dogs to 'give', but also that giving things to me is often rewarding for them and not just an end to their game. For example, the dog may have a boring old toy in it's mouth. I can take the opportunity to ask the dog to 'give' me the toy, then produce a brand new exciting toy to throw / squeek / give to the dog as a reward for giving up the old toy. The new object has a higher value to the dog. I have found that regularly practicing this technique, gradually working up until your dog is happy to give up a very high value object means I can confidently ask my dogs to 'give' or 'drop' any object in any situation.
You mention that you have been practicing taking the dogs food away when he is eating - this can actually encourage resource guarding as he learns to resent your presence around food. Instead, you can place a very small amount of dinner in your dogs bowl and when he has finished, walk over and drop in another handful of food (preferably something even more yummy). Once your dog happily accepts that you can add the extra food while your dog is still eating. This way your dog starts to become very comfortable with people and hands being around when he is eating as he associates it with something nice happening for him. If in a 'real life' situation you ever actually need to reach down and grab his bowl or food away he won't be concerned.
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Post by Dom on Mar 14, 2007 12:07:05 GMT -5
Kaos brings up excellent points on resource guarding from people. I went back and looked at my post and realized I wasn't very clear about taking an item from a dog that is resource guarding. I do take <insert valued object> away from them as soon as the dog exhibits guarding behavior by making them reliquish it. After that, everything that can be considered valuable enough to resource guard is removed so the dog doesn't have free reign. I do not constantly give an item then take it away. During the training process I want to be able to control the environment so that "trading" becomes a positive experience and the dog isn't set up to fail. We wanted them to know that us being around was always a good thing. We haven't had to worry about her guarding anything for a long time now. Elsie and Sadie chew their raw bones practically nose to nose without issue. However, I do remove all toys and bones when my mom brings her Pom over our house as a precaution. My mom's Pom is known for guarding bones and is actually encouraged to do so at her house. You know, because it is cute when a little dog does it. He is also allowed to "protect" her by biting at anything that comes close to her. Not in our house but in hers. The dogs get along fine with minimal warnings from us until my mom enters the room. She has turned herself into the "resource" that needs to be guarded. All the dogs get a LONG walk and/or a hard play session to drain some energy before they are allowed into our confined living room together. Sorry for the rant. Kaos touched on this as well. Hopefully, it isn't an issue that you will have to deal with in the future. The first time Sadie showed any signs of resource guarding we were at the Vets office. When we got home we removed all bones and toys from the floor. Sadie was only allowed to play with one when we were present. It also gave us an excellent opportunity to practice trading, drop, leave it and wait. Sadie was fascinated with squeakies so in the beginning we would give her a toy without a squeaky and trade it for a toy with a squeaky. This might sound a little strange but later we progressed to trading a squeaky toy for a squeaky toy by dismantling a clean squeaker and placing the tip (the actual piece that makes the noise) in our mouth. When we went to trade we would blow into the tip and make a bunch of different variations of the noise so she would look at us with "OOoooo wow. I want that one!" look. She was happy to trade her boring squeaky toy for what she thought was a fancy squeaker. Okay I warned you it was strange. During feedings we did what Kaos suggested. I didn't realize it but we still do it today. It had become such common practice that it turned into a routine for us. Drop some kibble into the bowl. Pet her if she didn't react to us being close. Drop a spoonful of canned food in the bowl when she was almost done with the kibble. In the beginning we were offering smaller amounts at a time and began with holding it in our hand. It may seem time consuming at first. It really isn't. Short training sessions can make a world of difference. You didn't mention this but it was a common mistake that I did. Don't use his name if you are correcting him. A dog's name doesn't represent the same thing our names do to us. It isn't their identity in the sense that "Hey thats me". It is a command like sit or down. Normally saying a dog's name means Come or Look at me. You don't want him to associate anything negative to it. It has been very hard for me to break myself of the habit. The first thing I want to do is say Sadie's name when I catch her doing something. Try to think of it in a different way. Saying "Sadie...NO" interprets into "Come/Look at me..NO" to her. So in essence, I am correcting her for coming or looking at me.
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Post by aheller on Mar 19, 2007 11:27:05 GMT -5
Hello all,
Thanks for all the interesting reading. Been meaning to reply, but it's been a heck of a week.
Charlie has been fine ever since that day. As I said, he never did it before then and has not done it since. In all fairness, we haven't seen Jack since that day so the problem may pop up again with him around. I was almost hoping that Charlie would start resource guarding so I could try and correct it (or at least identify it), but he has been an angel ever since that day.
Dom, you pretty much hit the nail on the head. When I went to grab the bone, he growled and I stood up and leaned back like "What the...?!?!" and that's when my girlfriend went in to grab it and got snapped at. So psychologically speaking, was he on alert from the start with another dog around, and that prompted him to start resource guarding? By first growling at me and then again when he snapped at my girlfriend? If so, then that makes sense. Next time it happens, I will work on getting him to relinquish it, versus just taking it away from him.
===> "If your friend does not have the same views as you do about dog training this can be difficult. "
Unfortunately, we don't and that presents a significant problem. (I would go into why, but that may be a better post for Temper Temper)
If Jack had merely growled and stood his ground, then stopped when Charlie backed off and showed that he was not interested in challenging him, that would be one thing. However, he jumped on Charlie, trying to bite. When Charlie backed up (literally across the room), Jack continued to move forward and backed him into a corner, growling and biting, which is when I became very nervous and got between them. I actually got an earful from the other owners, telling me that I should not have jumped between them, that was the wrong thing to do, and I should have let the dogs "fight it out". Sorry, but whether my reaction was right, wrong or indifferent, letting them "fight it out" did not sound right to me. It seems to condone Jack's behavior and I didn't want to risk Charlie developing any " dog aggression" (which I have read puppies may in situations like this). The thing that bothers me is that not only did they refuse to acknowledge that Jack did anything wrong, they would not even entertain the idea that it may not have been a good idea to let him continue to advance. Neither of them even moved! So when it comes to corrections, I am fairly certain that Jack will never get any from his owners. The question remains, did I do the right thing by getting between them? I am curious so that if (when) it happens again, I handle the situation properly.
kaos - Thanks for the tip about his food. I originally tried taking his food away just to see if he had any food aggression. He never seemed to, but I try every now and then just to see if he's developed any bad habits. I have since taken your advice and have been dropping small amounts of food at a time into his bowl. He seems fine with it.
We never leave Charlie alone with other dogs, he is always in eyesight and always with his short lead on, just in case. We are told by some that we are being overprotective, but I think being overprotective is far better than not being protective enough, particularly at his young age.
One other thing I have noticed is that Charlie goes into fits sometimes. Not sure if this is aggression related or not, but figured I would mention it. What he will do is start running, full speed, around the house. He will run around the coffee table in the living room, run into the kitchen and around the table in there, back into the living room and around the coffee table, back into the kitchen, again and again and again. If we are standing nearby or in his way, he will run full speed and jump, teeth first. Sometimes, he will crouch down (hind legs still in the air, front legs and chin flat on the ground) and lunge, then will run around the house again like a dog possessed. Usually lasts only a few minutes. Any thoughts on what this may be or how we should address it? I am sorry that I do not have any more info, like different situations when this happens, but I will try and pay better attention.
Again, thanks for all the info!
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Post by willow on Mar 19, 2007 12:16:33 GMT -5
The behavior you are describing where Charlie runs around (tails are usually tucked) is what rescue people call "The Zoomies". :)Most puppies/dogs do this and it is definately NOT aggression related.
When my puppies/dogs do this, I usually just get out of the way so as not to get knocked down (with an older, bigger dog) and let the Zoomie's pass. I have found when they are in this state, if you step in, or get too close, they think you are joining in the fun and they will run faster, playing a game of "keep away", or as you described, get mouthy/nippy.
I just stay out of their way while inwardly laughing at how goofy they are and thankful that they are feeling so good!
Maybe someone else here has a different/better way of handling "The Zoomies" and will respond.
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Post by aheller on Mar 19, 2007 13:03:33 GMT -5
HAHAHA! The "Zoomies", that's a riot! I have read about the zoomies in other posts, but didn't really understand what people were talking about. Now I know.
Thanks, glad to know it's nothing serious.
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Post by Dom on Mar 19, 2007 14:48:23 GMT -5
I actually got an earful from the other owners, telling me that I should not have jumped between them, that was the wrong thing to do, and I should have let the dogs "fight it out". It did worry me when you mentioned Jack didn't back off. Now that I know the views of your friend on dog training, I would say little to no interaction with Jack would be a good thing. Dogs will be dogs and they will give warnings to each other. That doesn't mean they should "fight it out". Sorry, but your friend is uneducated and really needs to read up on dog behavior and training. You were right to step in no matter what your friend said. You are part of your dog's pack and as leader you are responsible to protect them. Jack must set the rules in your friends home. Call me old fashion, but a dog shouldn't be in control when you are the one that pays the bills. Ahhhh zoomies. I considered zoomies as Sadie playing with her imaginary friend. Willow is right. Stay out of their way. Zooomie in a nut shell = Tail normally tucked trying to avoid the imaginary friend (made of air ) chasing your dog while he uses a days worth of energy in a five minutes while bouncing off trees and running full speed. Sadie is the only dog I have owned that had these "burst of craziness". She ALWAYS seemed to have them in the back yard and I was ALWAYS in her way. She would ram me so hard, from behind, that she knocked me over sometimes. She would try to avoid me but with her puppy awkardness she would end up turning short and clip me at my knees. A few shirts and a pair of pants became zoomie casualities when her teeth caught them in mid "I can fly" phase. Many bruises later, I decided to teach her to "zoom zoom" on command and have her make WIDE circles past me when I pointed to which side of me to run past. What can I say! I am a control freak. Thank goodness, she out grew her daily zoomies after she reached a year. I still think it is safer to stay out of their way and not be part of their game.
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Post by willow on Mar 19, 2007 15:27:30 GMT -5
I agree with Dom. I would definitely keep Charlie away from Jack and your friends if you do not want Charlie to develop problems. Think of this: You let your friends "baby sit" Charlie and Jack attacks him and your friends let them, "fight it out". That is such idiotic thinking!
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Post by Nicole on Mar 19, 2007 16:44:13 GMT -5
My six year old dog still does the zoomies. It is so amazing to watch this 100lb boy zoomie through the house and not hit a single thing. He is so agile. He usually does it after he poops or if he hasn't seen a favorite person in a while. I love watching it. It is like he is a puppy again for that minute. ;D
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Post by Dom on Mar 20, 2007 8:02:23 GMT -5
I don't think I want to see Sadie have another zoomie. She doesn't have the best balance with those long legs of hers. Elsie has probably never had a zoomie in her life. She is so mellow. I still laugh when I picture Sadie zoom. Her eyes would get big and she would raise up like a wild horse before taking off trying to get enough speed to break the sonic barrier. Aheller, I wouldn't pay any attention to those saying you are being over protective. The fact is that dogs have teeth that could injury someone or do worse to a child. They will grow to have a faster reaction time than we do. It is your job to properly socialize and train a dog when you get one. People tend to forget they are liable for their dogs actions. Next time someone says you are being over protective you can tell them "NO I am being a responsible dog owner." They, on the other hand, are being an incompetent and lazy person ruled by their dog.
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Post by willow on Mar 20, 2007 9:39:15 GMT -5
My six year old dog still does the zoomies. It is so amazing to watch this 100lb boy zoomie through the house and not hit a single thing. He is so agile. He usually does it after he poops or if he hasn't seen a favorite person in a while. I love watching it. It is like he is a puppy again for that minute. ;D I know what you mean. Kara is 10 now and every now and then when we are outside she will come and stand a few feet from either Duane or I....who ever is outside, and give us this "look" and we know she wants to "play", so we will bend over slightly, say..."I'm going to get you", and take a step towards her. She doesn't have a tail to tuck, but she will run all over the yard as fast as she can go! Most of the time she will play "hide and seek" and go behind Duane's Van and peek out at us, at which time we will go through the "routine" again! It is so much fun for all of us, and after about a minute or two, she is panting and done with the game. ;D
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Post by aheller on Mar 22, 2007 12:59:27 GMT -5
===> Sorry, but your friend is uneducated and really needs to read up on dog behavior and training.
No reason to apologize, you're preaching to the choior. He is an ignorant buffoon. He just so happens to know everything about everything. Just ask him, he'll be glad to tell you.
I use the term "friends" very loosely. In any other situation, I am not sure I would be friends with them. But, they consist of my girlfriend's sister and brother-in-law, so I really don't have much of a choice. Know what I mean? Makes for a very touchy situation that must be handled with care.
===> You are part of your dog's pack and as leader you are responsible to protect them.
Funny, that's almost exactly what I said word for word. I also mentioned to them that being the leader of Jack's pack, it is up to them to teach him what is acceptable behavior and what is not.
===> You let your friends "baby sit" Charlie and Jack attacks him and your friends let them, "fight it out". That is such idiotic thinking!
Which is why they will never take care of our dog.
I don't want to give a bad an impression of Jack, he is a great dog and I like him a lot. He got along great with our Golden Retriever Tahoe (RIP), but Tahoe was very submissive and Jack walked all over him. We have taken care of Jack many times while they were on vacation. It just worries me that he reacted towards Charlie this way. Was it a one shot deal? Could be. Will it happen again? I don't know. Maybe it will never happen again, maybe it will happen every single time we see them. Either way, the possibility of it makes me nervous enough that I want to remedy the problem, or at least be on high alert when they are together so we can jump right on it. I just need them to be on board with it also. However, even now they still don't think that Jack did anything that warrants correcting and until they do, I do not want Charlie around him.
Also, I don't want Charlie picking up any bad habits. There were a few other things about their interaction with Charlie that got on my nerves also, but that should probably be a different thread.
So my plan is to try and have a conversation with them and explain that we have certain training ideas that we are trying to work with Charlie on and we need them to help us out and help Jack out so we can all get along. Hopefully, they will be receptive to this and be willing to work with us to keep the dogs friendly and non-aggressive towards each other. However, if they are unwilling to do their part, then this may turn into something more awkward.
Time will tell, we will see what happens.
Thanks once again!
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Post by willow on Mar 22, 2007 16:52:05 GMT -5
Sorry, I'm not too bright either. I got you mixed up with bobbenson.
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Post by sibemom on Mar 23, 2007 20:45:10 GMT -5
I think you got some great advice here and I am glad that Charlie has not shown that behavior again ;D Because I am skimming the responses one thing I would keep doing is making sure he never has a food or bone gaurding issue again. I DO take away my dogs food I do not agree that it causes more issues, NOPE NO WAY, and that is not a subject I am willing to debate Adding small amounts of food is fine but WHY I don't allow my dogs to think about things like that or make a decission like OH YOU KEEP TAKING MY FOOD AWAY SO I AM GOING TO GAURD IT MORE That will never happen in this house. I have from DAY ONE, put my hands in their full bowls, just about SAT IN THEM WHEN THEY WERE EATING, and taken the food away and given it back. One thing I also do which I see you are doing is taking bones, toys, etc.... away and if there is a fuss about it, they do not get them back for a long time. I think what went on with Charlie was just a simple case of another dog being around, but I think that was already said, you see, as good as my dogs are with HUMANS and their food, toys, etc... THEY ARE NOT real good with each other. I do not require that because I feed the dogs seperatly even treats and bones, but they do have to respect the two legged MASTERS and that includes my 6 year old son So good luck keeping on top of Charlie, just be aware, and like everyone else said DO NOT EXPOSE HIM TO THAT OTHER DOG or the other dogs owners FIGHT IT OUT HEY YEAH WELL I am not going there
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