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Post by aheller on Mar 2, 2007 13:45:36 GMT -5
Hello,
Well, the little guy is becoming quite the biter. He is very fond of biting hands, but will also bite your legs when walking by and (unfortunately for the guys) will also bite the crotch of any unsuspecting male in the vicinity.
I have read many things about how to stop your pup from biting, but nothing has really worked so far. I am guessing that it is a problem with us not addressing the issue properly, but not sure what we're doing wrong.
I have read that when the puppy bites, you should yelp or cry out so he knows that his biting is hurtful. We have been yelling "Ouch!" when he sinks his teeth in, but it doesn't really stop the biting. He may hesitate for a second and bite even harder, or it may not even phase him at all. When you take your hand away, he will try even harder to get at it again.
I have also tried the "get him to bite something else instead" approach. That works sometimes, but usually once he figures out that he's been duped, will come back and bite again. Also, it is not always feasible to do this if you are at the vet, outside or at the store with him as there are not always toys around to divert his attention.
Also, I have seen that some people will put them on their backs and give them a firm "NO!" and hold then down until they stop struggling. We tried this, but it seems to only frustrate him further. Plus, he uses his legs to push at you in addition to trying to bite you. When he calms down enough to let him go, he will come back with a vengence.
So how can we remedy this? Perhaps we are not doing the corrections above properly? Or maybe there is a better way?
Thanks!
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Post by Nicole on Mar 2, 2007 17:47:33 GMT -5
and (unfortunately for the guys) will also bite the crotch of any unsuspecting male in the vicinity. That could be a big problem... That really made me lol. I am envisioning the poor innocent walking by having no idea he is about to be chomped upon. OK, on a more serious note, this is a very frustrating puppy issue. I think of all the things that nearly compelled me to throw my puppy out the window on more than one ocassion...JUST KIDDING.. was the CONSTANT biting. It is a puppy thing and a teething thing and if you handle it correctly and are patient I promise you it will stop...eventually. It is such an innate behavior that it doesn't stop overnight. Consistency is the key. Yelling ouch or yelping in my mind tells the pup that you are a litter mate which you are not. You are alpha. Alpha doesn't yelp. Alpha bites the stinkers neck. I am also not a huge fan of the roll over for many reasons including that it usually riles the dog more. Wolves don't forcibly roll one another unless they are going to kill. The roll over is a voluntary act by the dog giving in. So when you force the dog and hold it down you can really effect trust issues. I think a reasonably firm correction with redirection followed by praise for chewing on the proper item works. Not overnight but eventually. But you have to be consistent. He bites you..be firm and calm and superior and alpha and say in no uncertain terms by your tone that this is not permitted and say NO and then give a proper object. Don't get upset, don't yell, don't push or engage the pup. There is a tone and a look that says I am so the boss and that if you do not comply death will be upon you (of course i mean that figuratively) and you have to find that attitude. That is what worked for us plus locking the pup in a closet for two months...just kidding!!! You can carry a small toy in your pocket wherever you go. Pup tries to bite, a firm alpha superior no, shove toy in mouth, good puppy. You can also walk away and ignore the pup until he is biting what he should be biting. I spent a lot of time actually praising my pup for deciding on his own to chew a toy. It really does work but again as with everything there must be consistency, firmness and patience.
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Post by Kona on Mar 3, 2007 1:20:57 GMT -5
Much is made of the concept of anthropomorphism, or the tendency of humans to impose human motivation to animal behavior ("I can tell he feels guilty by the look on his face" or "He did that to get even with me"), but not enough is discussed about the fact that animals return the favor by attributing our behavior to animal motivations. This is sometimes referred to as "zoomorphism" or "theriomorphism," although these words have other meanings and uses as well.
For example, let's say that a dog is barking out the window at something he sees. A human comes in and yells at the dog to stop barking, and the dog wags his tail and barks even louder. From the dog's point of view the human was alerted by the barking and came into the room to join in (that's what the raised voice sounded like to the dog: more barking), so the dog gets excited by the fact that his pack mate or leader (the human) agreed that barking was justified, and so he barks with increased enthusiasm. It seems rare that humans seriously put effort into communicating in a way that makes sense to a dog, but rather we just assume that if we repeat our behavior often enough then a dog will somehow catch on.
So what does this have to do with a nipping puppy? In nature there is a consequence for every behavior, and it is this natural consequence that a dog looks for so that he can decide whether or not to repeat a specific behavior. When a puppy nips a littermate, the other pup either yelps and backs away or he returns the bite. If the puppy that received the nip yelps in pain and backs away, he is, at least in that moment, conceding the exchange to the puppy that nipped, and the puppy that nipped is more likely to repeat the behavior when he feels that it will be to his advantage to do so.
Another possibility is that the puppy that received the nip will take offense and return the bite. If the puppy that first bit then backs down, the relationship has been established in the opposite direction. In either case it is soon settled to the understanding of both puppies.
When a puppy nips his mother or another higher-ranking member of his pack, the result is usually a short, sharp bark accompanied by the unmistakable baring of teeth, and often a physical exchange such as a returned bite to the neck or body that is frightening but does not puncture the puppy's skin. Again we see a natural consequence that in this case causes the behavior to be less likely to recur.
Now imagine if a larger, older, higher-ranking pack member responded to an experimental puppy bite by yelping and backing away. This is the advice that we humans are often given, but look at it from a puppy's point of view. We have just acted like an intimidated puppy! Of course the biting is going to get worse. It made the puppy feel powerful in a way that makes perfect sense to him but is totally missed by uninformed humans.
Now imagine if a puppy bit an older, larger, higher-ranking pack member, and that dog responded by standing up on its hind legs, shaking a front paw at the puppy, and "lecturing" the puppy by making nonsensical sounds. There is absolutely no context in which this would make any sense to a puppy at all, but as with the previous hypothetical situation, this is where zoomorphism must be taken into account. In neither case, either with yelping or with lecturing, have we communicated in a way that makes sense to a puppy.
So what should we do? Put ourselves in the place of a mother or other pack member whose interest is served by educating the puppy in the rules of the pack and respond in a way that the puppy naturally understands.
What I tell all of my students is Put Your Puppy On A Leash. The purpose of a leash is to control your puppy until he is trained to respond to your voice. Once your voice has the same control as the leash, then the leash is no longer needed.
So now the scenario will look like this: you have your puppy on a leash and he nips at you. You quickly respond by popping the leash (which simulates a physical correction from a higher-ranking dog), and you say a negative word in a way that sounds like a short, sharp bark (NO!). There aren't too many puppies that will repeat a behavior that elicits this response from a pack leader.
When a puppy does ignore this correction, it is inevitably due to the human "pulling the punch." We feel guilty for acting in ways that seem overly harsh to us, and so we give leash corrections that are closer to light tugs than quick pops, and we say our negative word by drawing it out and making it sound like a question: "No-ooooooooooo?" This Is Not A Correction To A Puppy And Only Encourages Him To Repeat His Behavior!
What about redirecting the behavior by giving the puppy an appropriate item to chew on? Again, look at it from a puppy's point of view: he nipped at his pack leader, and in response he was given a fun toy. Do you think that the puppy is more or less likely to repeat the behavior? The purpose of appropriate chew toys is to keep the puppy from biting you in the first place, but once he does bite it is our obligation to respond in a way that will cause that behavior to be less likely to be repeated, and by doing so in a way that the puppy instinctively comprehends.
Give your puppy the gift of leadership, and act in a way that makes sense to him naturally!
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Post by Dom on Mar 7, 2007 13:39:52 GMT -5
I can't add anything about doggie behavior to Kona's well written post. Nice write up. What I can add is something we did during Sadie's "teething stages" We went through two. One at around 6 months and the other closer to a year. She was in a lot of discomfort. We had an old towel that we ripped in long segments. We then tied a bunch of knots in the pieces, soaked them in water and froze two at a time in a freezer bag. We gave them to Sadie to chew on and it seemed to relieve her need to chew. We tried to dip a canvas toy in water to freeze but the knotted towels were much easier to clean. We did trade toys when she tried to chew on things like furniture. We didn't allow her to chew on us. Of course, she had her moments when she was in mid Zoomie that she thought everything was fair game to bite or chew. Our simple rules were: If chewing was focused on an inappropriate object...warn, redirect, praise If she tried to bite/chew a person or any living thing...a meaningful correction that could not be interpreted as play We kept a tab on Sadie after an incident were she bit hard enough to draw blood during one of her zoomies. It made it much easier to correct. I also had to learn to change the tone of my voice. My voice is naturally high pitched. I had to lower my tone and slow my speech pattern. Sadie tested me a lot more than my husband when she was a puppy. I had less of a problem after I matched my husband's tone and was clear that no meant NO.
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Post by bobbenson on Mar 7, 2007 14:08:14 GMT -5
>>"No-ooooooooooo?" This Is Not A Correction
Kona, I have a tendency to do the above sort of thing when asking the dog to do something. For example on a long leash on a potty walk I might say "come on" asking the dog to come in my general direction.
During training or when I want the dog to come a say a short "come" in a soft decisive voice. I expect the dog to come in that situation and would correct if he didn't. I might do this same thing for drop, meaning let go of what is in your mouth.
I'm sure I did this with prior dogs and it didn't create any problems. My current puppy seems to completely react to the tone of my voice. A decisive drop always works and an asking tone of voice will get me a look and a "well, all right" sort of response and look from him.
I'm getting the sort of behavior I want doing this. Having said that is this a bad idea?
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Post by Laura on Mar 8, 2007 0:33:09 GMT -5
Bobbenson, tonality of voice plays a huge part in training, or as I like to call it "We Call Them Commands, Not Requests" ;D.
Sit, down, stay, leave it and drop it are all given with a neutral tone of voice, not harsh, just decisive. But the recall, or "come" should be taught with a happy, high pitched tone, like seeing the dog is the most wonderful thing in the world, No corrections should be given while teaching the come, maybe a gentle tug to get the dog to pay attention to the command, but that's all.
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Post by bobbenson on Mar 8, 2007 17:34:07 GMT -5
Laura, the question is really, is it ok to use requests?
While on a potty walk on a leash, for example, I'd prefer to start moving in the general direction of back home. That's a "come-on, l'd prefer to go this way". If he gets a scent all of a sudden, I'd rather have him stay exactly where he is and do his thing.
If I say sit, that is a command and I expect it now.
Is it ok to give requests, or does that just confuse the dog? I don't see any signs of confusion.
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Post by Aussienot on Mar 8, 2007 22:34:01 GMT -5
If you've established a firm base of leadership with your dog, most of what you do will be a "request". The dog will be delighted to respond because he will want to please his leader. A pleasant asking is not a sign of weakness. It would be an unpleasant leader to have who always demanded. But demand or request, compliance is not optional.
You've always got the firm voice demands for emergencies, and the willingness to enforce/escalate if the request is not fulfilled.
I tried a number of things to minimize mouthing. The technique that finally worked for me was to use my fingers to hold down the dog's tongue every time my land shark bit. Just for a few seconds. Finn hated it. So his action was met with a consequence he did not appreciate. Before I would do it, I would say "Enough". Before long, the word Enough could make him stop mouthing. Done consistently over a couple of months, the mouthing diminished to levels where I was able to approach him without wearing Kevlar.
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Post by aheller on Mar 9, 2007 15:29:54 GMT -5
Hello all,
Well, the problem is slowly going away. We have been implementing different combinations of advice given here and the problem is no where near as bad as it was before. We have been following Dom's simple rules and that works great as a guideline of what action to take for which infraction.
Using the leash worked out very well. All it took was a couple of corrections (popping the leash) and now when the leash is on, he will not even think about biting our hands. When the leash is off, he gets a little bolder and will test the limits. He will try and bite, but it is not a rough bite (as it was before), he will kind of try it out and put his mouth loosely around my hand and when I give him a stern "NO!" he will let go right away.
He has not really been chewing on anything he shouldn't be, other than the biting of the hands and the occasional stolen paper towel. He tries to grab stuff off the coffee table sometimes, but he is never without a pair of eyes on him (unless crated), so we always get to him before he can cause any damage. He understands " drop it", so if he grabs something he shouldn't, he will drop it when told to. He is also pretty good with "leave it" so if he has his eye on something and is plotting to grab it (he's pretty obvious about this, you can tell when he's planning the "snatch and run"), a stern "leave it" will send him on his way. He will sometimes run by with a stolen glove (or a sock, or a slipper, or a pot holder), but he is not exactly sneaky about it and knows he is doing something wrong. That's when " drop it" followed by redirection and praise work very well.
So I think we're making progress. Time and consistency will tell.
Thanks, everyone, for you advice!
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