|
Post by bobbenson on Jan 10, 2007 22:45:12 GMT -5
Hi, I've been reading through some of the posts here for the past several days and there is a lot of good information. I'd like to introduce myself and ask a question or two.
I'm 50 (older than I would like to be) and have had two boxers in my adult life. In 1980 I bought my first one and the second one in 1985. They both lived good lives but I have been dogless for about 5 years. I would like to get another boxer in the near future.
I worked with a trainer for quite some time with my first dog. Both were well trained from a pet standpoint. They would heel on and and off a leash, sit, stay, come, etc. My first dog which I got at 6 weeks old would stay for 20 minutes. I remember a party where someone was afraid of dogs and I told her to sit. I got distracted and forgot about her. I came back 20 minutes later and she was still there sitting (with an annoyed can I move now look on her face). 15 people walking around her at the party and she didn't move.
My second boxer I got from a well know show dog breeder at 1.5 years old. He was more insecure and never was to the point of sitting for 20 minutes like my example above, but he was very well behaved. The breeder was Joe Heine at Boxella Kennels. I suspect the dog was sold to me as a pet because he for some reason didn't show well. He was a beautiful dog, however.
On both dogs I followed through with my original dog trainers instructions which were pretty straight forward. A lot of walks on a choke chain with minor corrections. During the walk, a lot of sit, down stay come practice. There was no talk of becoming the dominant person etc although I am sure I took that position.
The other thing the trainer had me do for "stay" was set up mirrors, tell the dog to sit (or stay) and then leave the area. When the dog moved I went to the dog and screamed in its face. Something I refer to as Marine Drill Instructor training. This was done well after the dogs were well leash trained by the way.
I am just starting to read up on current training techniques. Remember what I described above dates back to the early 80's. The leash training which I was taught to do, seems similar to training methods of today. I have yet to see anything with mirrors or Drill Instructor shout in your face techniques however. While it did work on my dogs, I doubt that shouting for correction is a good method. The mirror approach may still make sense though? Any opinions on that?
So, that's my background. Here's my question. Besides forums etc., does anybody recommend any good books etc., on dog training. I'd like to educate myself before getting my next dog.
|
|
|
Post by Laura on Jan 11, 2007 13:13:33 GMT -5
Bobbenson, hi and welcome to the forum! Quite a bit has changed since many of us started working with dogs, but common sense never went out of fashion (i.e., teaching obedience commands, correcting the dog when behavior was undesirable, using praise when behavior was right, etc.) . But I'd have to say theat your previous trainer was a bit off the mark with the screaming routine, in 20+ years of working with dogs, I've never screamed at a dog, except in an emergency situation. Using mirrors to carch your dog breaking a downstay is fine, but a simple "Ahh ahh no" will suffice for a verbal correction. A good rule of thumb to use when teaching a dog something is to set the dog up to succeed, not to fail. Which means that while teaching a dog something new, it's unfair to correct them, corrections come only AFTER you're sure the dog knows what is expected of them. The order of training is teaching, proofing, and then correction for noncompliance of a known command. And before you get your new furry friend, maybe a Boxer from a rescue would be a good bet, many of them come already somewhat trained, and you'll also miss the crazy puppy nonsense too ;D.
|
|
|
Post by bobbenson on Jan 11, 2007 19:54:20 GMT -5
Thanks Laura.
I didn't think, in retrospect, that the screaming thing was either necessary or beneficial.
One other question comes to mind. Is it possible to overtrain. I'm thinking specifically of barking and comfort around strangers. In the case of barking, I would like to have a dog that gives out one bark when a stranger knocks at the door. I don't want a dog that barks and barks. I would assume the way you would approach this is to set up a situation where someone comes to the door. If the dog barks and barks, you correct them. When it is reduced to the point that they give out one bark and stop you praise them.
Similar to the above, I don't want to have my dog aggressive toward strangers. I never had an aggressive problem with my dogs. I did have one occasion where my dog nipped at a friend who I later found out was afraid of dogs. I assume the dog sensed the fear. It was a nip on the hand - meaning it didn't break the skin. It was also the only occurance of that behavior with that dog. If you overtrain a dog to be comfortable around strangers, will that affect his ability to be protective in the case of a burglar while you are sleeping, or will the territorial / defensive nature still be there?
I only mention that because I've seen some posts and a show on tv as well breaking dogs of these and I wonder if you can take it to far?
|
|
|
Post by Nicole on Jan 13, 2007 8:41:03 GMT -5
Hi Bobenson. Welcome. I think one bark is a bit of wishful thinking. ;D A few barks is more realistic. When a dog goes into drive (territorial) that produces vocalization, the barks come quickly and don’t stop easily. And you don’t want to correct for the barking per se because you may extinguish that behavior all together if you do, which you don’t want. I have had great success teaching my dog to quiet after several barks. I, like you, want him to bark. I want that behavior very much. I actually praise that behavior. But I also want it to be controlled. We are at a point that if the doorbell rings, Sunny barks like a big mean dog and then I say go lie down and he quiets and goes out of sight to a spot and downs until he is released. I open the door and he stays where he is until told otherwise. He also knows “enough” which is to stop barking. This took a lot of training. Many practice sessions on Halloween cemented the exercise. If I want him to keep barking and not move away I simply don’t give the command and I have done this when some kids were ringing and running and we caught them at the door. I offered to let the dog out to play with them. They didn’t return. What you want to do is teach an alternate command and then once the dog knows that command you can correct for not obeying the alternate command. In other words you are teaching the dog to do something else after a sufficient number of barks rather than just correcting for barking without giving any guidance as to what the dog should do instead. But make sure the dog understands the command before you start correcting for noncompliance. You can teach a quiet command..”enough” or whatever you want to say. Or you can teach the dog to go and lay down and keep quiet after barking or to sit and shhhh. So you need to decide what you want the dog to do after alerting you and teach him to do exactly that. I don’t think that Boxers are huge barkers. I am not sure about that though. So you may not have a tough time doing this. Sunny is a barker and it took a while but the results are now exactly as I want them. And it has not changed his extreme social behavior towards people including strangers. Also, his extreme social behavior does not effect his persistent territoriality. Be aware though that there is no way to tell what a dog will do in the face of a real threat. Don’t expect your dog to save your life. The dog may choose to flee when an actual invasion occurs. You should understand that your dog is a watch dog, an alerter, not a guard dog. These are two entirely different things. Although a barking dog is usually enough to keep all but the stupidest of burglers away.
|
|
|
Post by bobbenson on Jan 13, 2007 14:21:12 GMT -5
Thanks Nicole.
That answers a number of my questions. Particularly the fact that you can over train for things such as barking. I like your approach. In my experience, boxers aren't barkers. I work out of the house and it's not appropriate to have a dog barking in the background while on the phone. That's something I'll have to figure out how to deal with. Perhaps, like you suggested, having the dog lay down while I am on the phone.
Like I said in my first post, I had two well behaved boxers, but I haven't started with a puppy in 24 years or so. So I'm just in a research mode as well as figuring out what I really want the dog to do.
If anybody has any suggestions for good traing books...
|
|
|
Post by Aussienot on Jan 13, 2007 18:04:09 GMT -5
My all time favorite training book is Purely Positive Training by Sheila Booth. Don't be put off by the purely positive approach, she has worked with some very serious dogs to an extreme level of control. There is a thread in the books forum that lists everyones recommended reading lists.
I think most dogs can figure out that the doorbell ringing or a knock on the door is startling, perhaps a bit worrying, but not life threatening.
However, a dog can figure out that an unknown figure coming through a window is probably a threat. Most dogs will not attack unless put on the defensive; that is, they have to perceive a real threat to their safety or the safety of the pack. And they have to have the confidence to fight it.
Nicki is right that you don't know what the dog will do in a real emergency if you are not there to direct him. Most dogs will default to the instinctive behavior, which may be fight or may be flight. It depends on how much fight drive was born into the dog and how much it has been developed or suppressed through training.
I was going to help my mother train her Lhasa Apso not go to into a barking frenzy at the doorbell using the "go lay down" approach. But for a hard to train dog it seemed too complex. After one week of intensive boot camp leadership lessons, I was able to hush him after just one bark. It is his job to bark once, not his job to defend the door. I simply said no in the right tone of voice, and put my hand down in front of his face.
Of course he got a treat as soon as the person came in the door, and we practiced it about 3 million times before I left. I hope my mother keeps up the leadership stuff because that was the key to making him understand his role.
|
|
|
Post by sibemom on Jan 14, 2007 9:26:58 GMT -5
Welcome Not much more to add because Nicki, Aussie and Laura hit some really good points We have a three bark rule here ;D three barks and then QUIET it works pretty well. So lets see with 3 dogs that would be 9 barks total I have used the no bark collars but only because I have CREEPY NEIGHBORS but really they did assist in getting to that 1, 2, 3, QUIET. I am not a fan of those collars but in our situation I felt it was warrented. Now after they have had there 3 barks all I do is either tap on the window or stick my head out the door and most of time don't have to say anything just seeing my expression QUIETS THE HERD My dogs are very quiet in the house so I never really had a problem inside unless someone came to the door and you know even then they only WOOF once and then LOOK AT ME I never scream at the dogs unless like what Laura said it is an extreme emergency. I think a rescue dog is a great idea. Yes there are some changes in training and you can get so overwhelmed by all the different approaches. Since you have owned dogs before you are one step ahead of the game because aside from the screaming which I would not do, you know how to train you dog. I feel bad for the first time owners who have no clue and get overwhelmed by all the hype. I even got overwhelmed with all the info and finally got my head screwed on straight again and thought to myself "HAVE I BEEN DOING THIS WRONG ALL THESE YEARS " Of course not I have had a few dogs with strange issues but mine have always been very well behaved, so I flushed all the NEW FANDANGLED METHODS and went back to the COMMON SENSE APPROACH and it works Glad you found the site.
|
|
|
Post by bobbenson on Jan 14, 2007 12:41:54 GMT -5
Thanks again to everybody. Silly me, I didn't even notice that there was a book section.
Another question: Do you folks heel a dog on just one side or do you train your dog to heel on both sides. I believe there are choke chains out there now that will apply a choke from either side. I was taught to heel a dog on the left side and used a standard choke chain for corrections.
I was lucky the first time around with my dogs because I was single and living alone so the environment was very consistent. I was also taught by a good dog trainer (aside from the screaming thing). He was very big on leash training and his leash training methods seem to be the same as I see today. This time, I have my wife in the home, but no kids. I don't know how my wife is going to be with giving corrections, even minor ones. We were together for the last three years of my last dogs life. By that time his behavior was so ingrained in him that I suspect it was very rare to need to give him a correction.
|
|
|
Post by sibemom on Jan 14, 2007 14:52:17 GMT -5
I train my dogs on both sides, BUT I make sure the correct heel on the left is perfected before I introduce the Right. I guess I spent to many years training horses and with them what you train on the left you have to do on the right so it's just a habit I got into. I am glad I did because now that my BC has become my service dog, he needs to be able to work either side.
|
|
|
Post by bobbenson on Jan 14, 2007 15:06:42 GMT -5
sibemom,
Do you use a standard choke chain and just reverse the way you put it on to work on the right side?
Thanks
|
|
|
Post by sibemom on Jan 14, 2007 15:57:30 GMT -5
Actually I do not use a Chain Slip Collar (I LIKE THAT WORD BETTER ) I never use them I always use a pinch collar and if the dog is real soft I just use a leather martingale or just a flat collar. I do not like slip/choke collars just my preference but if you are using one then yes reverse it but make sure it is not inside out, I hope understand what I mean by that I wish I could explain what I meant but just make sure the links are so the collar does not get stuck and slides freely and make sure the ring is in the correct spot for the right side
|
|
|
Post by Nicole on Jan 14, 2007 18:11:57 GMT -5
I always heel on the right. I do this because I don’t weigh too much more than my dog and I feel more comfortable hanging on to the leash with my dominant arm. Reasons for heeling left are so you can hold the leash with your left arm and give the correction with your dominant arm. I think left sided heeling initially came from dog shows. I don’t think it matters. I think it is great if a dog can heel on both sides. Otherwise, I don’t think it makes a huge difference. Not many people use choke chains these days because of the risk of injury to the neck, throat and trachea. Most use prong collars which pinches rather than tightening around the neck. I want to also say that I am still paying the price for overcorrecting on the heel. Consequently, my dog views this as an unhappy undesirable thing to do. If I had to do it over I would teach this exercise in small steps using motivation. Then after the dog learned the exercise and failed to comply I could correct (which may only be a NO depending on what is going on). Also remember that a dog that heels nicely inside will not know how to heel at the park. You have to start over with distractions. This is where I made my error. I was frustrated (bad bad me ) and I overcorrected in a distraction setting which was unfair to the dog.
|
|
|
Post by sibemom on Jan 14, 2007 18:46:16 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by bobbenson on Jan 14, 2007 19:44:22 GMT -5
Interesting. I suspect, Sibemom that I will start with a "slip collar" because that is what I know. I also don't recall needing strong corrections on either of my dogs, but it's also been a long time. If I find I am doing a lot of corrections, I'll look into one of your pinch collars. I don't ever recall having an issue with having the collar inside out. That may be more of an issue with long haired dogs or I was doing it right?? My trainer told me to make a "P" out of the collar and put it on the dog. That's pretty much what I did. Nicole, interesting that you also use the pinch collar. I was thinking of enrolling in one of the local dog training classes. Mostly for exposure to other dogs and distractions as you mentioned. It does seem to make sense to start out heeling on the left and then train on the right. I can use a computer mouse with both hands, why can't I heel on both sides . Thanks again everybody. I'm sure I'll be back with more questions soon!!
|
|