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Post by espencer85 on Sept 21, 2006 20:26:00 GMT -5
How do you teach if you don't reward. And by reward I don't just mean treats. I mean anything that motivates the dog. If you are not rewarding until the dog knows and obeys the rules, how does the dog learn the rules. Teaching with no rewards is pure aversive training. I don't agree with that. You dont agree because you didnt read the whole thing i posted "Treats and Toys as Training Rewards: With some dogs, treats and toy rewards condition them to rely on the reward and not on the pack leader. When a dog is imbalanced, the practice of allowing treats for behavior often teaches that dog how to manipulate the situation – and you. He’ll learn what to do for the initial reward, but after that he’ll go right back to the bad behavior. Don’t get me wrong, I believe in rewarding dogs, but only once they’ve learned to follow standard rules, boundaries, and limitations though my pack leadership." "Chow Time! Create Balance Before Feeding Your Dog You know the saying “There’s no such thing as a free lunch?” Well, think about that the next time you are getting ready to feed your dog. To put it another way, your dog has a natural instinct to work for food. All animals work for food and water. All of them. And we need to learn that we are feeding the animal—not the name, not the breed, not the species—the animal. This is how they stay in tune to nature because they use nature as a source of survival. So when somebody properly challenges a dog by creating hunger and thirst before feeding, this allows the dog to be in-tune with itself. I make them wait. The dog that is the most calm-submissive of the pack gets to eat first. Can you imagine what kind of a motivator that is for the other dogs to be calm-submissive? There is no barking or rushing or jumping allowed; and no one is permitted to growl at anyone else. Mealtime is then an incredibly satisfying experience for them, because they’ve earned it – and they know it!" The dog feels better eating after the WHOLE train sesion is over, he feels he worked for his food
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Post by kaos on Sept 21, 2006 20:26:13 GMT -5
I agree with that Rocky, and Dog I also think it is ok for us to disagree. Nicky - really valid point about the illness, well done.
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Post by espencer85 on Sept 21, 2006 21:01:29 GMT -5
I agree with that Rocky, and Dog I also think it is ok for us to disagree. Nicky - really valid point about the illness, well done. Oh no doubt about it, you have the entire right to disagree as much as i do, like i said, better for Masha that has more options to choose from
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Post by Nicole on Sept 21, 2006 21:04:44 GMT -5
How do you teach if you don't reward. And by reward I don't just mean treats. I mean anything that motivates the dog. If you are not rewarding until the dog knows and obeys the rules, how does the dog learn the rules. Teaching with no rewards is pure aversive training. I don't agree with that. You dont agree because you didnt read the whole thing i posted "Treats and Toys as Training Rewards: With some dogs, treats and toy rewards condition them to rely on the reward and not on the pack leader. When a dog is imbalanced, the practice of allowing treats for behavior often teaches that dog how to manipulate the situation – and you. He’ll learn what to do for the initial reward, but after that he’ll go right back to the bad behavior. Don’t get me wrong, I believe in rewarding dogs, but only once they’ve learned to follow standard rules, boundaries, and limitations though my pack leadership." "Chow Time! Create Balance Before Feeding Your Dog You know the saying “There’s no such thing as a free lunch?” Well, think about that the next time you are getting ready to feed your dog. To put it another way, your dog has a natural instinct to work for food. All animals work for food and water. All of them. And we need to learn that we are feeding the animal—not the name, not the breed, not the species—the animal. This is how they stay in tune to nature because they use nature as a source of survival. So when somebody properly challenges a dog by creating hunger and thirst before feeding, this allows the dog to be in-tune with itself. I make them wait. The dog that is the most calm-submissive of the pack gets to eat first. Can you imagine what kind of a motivator that is for the other dogs to be calm-submissive? There is no barking or rushing or jumping allowed; and no one is permitted to growl at anyone else. Mealtime is then an incredibly satisfying experience for them, because they’ve earned it – and they know it!" The dog feels better eating after the WHOLE train sesion is over, he feels he worked for his food Yes actually I did read it all. I am not talking about eating. How do you have a training session if the dog hasn't first learned what it is you are training in that session. Go back to square one. You Have the dog sit, down, stay whatever. How do you teach those commands. I can understand giving a jack pot at the end of a session when the dog knows the commands. But to have the session the dog must have learned what it is it is doing in the session. How do you teach that.
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Post by espencer85 on Sept 22, 2006 8:50:33 GMT -5
Oh well I am more into fix behavior in a dog, i care less if my dog knows how to play dead, maybe if he knows to sit down whan i say i would be happy but i'm not into training at all
So i guess if you want to train a dog the treats are fine at the beginning but since we are talking here about fixing unbalanced behavior then thats a different thing, lets start a topic about training a dog to sit, get down, roll over, etc. and then we can talk about treats involved with it.
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Post by Nicole on Sept 22, 2006 14:21:31 GMT -5
The End ;D
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Post by Richard on Sept 22, 2006 14:58:59 GMT -5
Ok then, here we go.... Oh well I am more into fix behavior in a dog, i care less if my dog knows how to play dead, maybe if he knows to sit down whan i say i would be happy but i'm not into training at all Based on what you noted above, it's safe to assume to say a dog you did have wasn't trained for basic OB but that was ok, cuz he/she didn't have any behavioral issues - is that a good thing? And no, I'm not kidding here. How can you state above you're not into training a dog but do choose to work on behavioural issues? In other posts you talk about setting boundries, rules ect (which is the way it should be) yet here you state you're not into training. I can't see how you can't infer training and behavioral issues are not remotely related in this matter. If a dog has behavioral issues its either because of a mental disorder/bad breeding or not being trained at any time in its life. I think THEN you have a behavioral issue and you need to train him (yes, starting with sit, down, stay) to get him back where you want his behavior to be. I'm cool with you quoting Cesar but I'd rather hear more from you on how you look at things - afterall this is what the benefit of such exchanges offer us all - a personal insight on how to get the best out of our dogs. I think someone was listening!
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Post by espencer85 on Sept 22, 2006 16:19:30 GMT -5
Based on what you noted above, it's safe to assume to say a dog you did have wasn't trained for basic OB but that was ok, cuz he/she didn't have any behavioral issues - is that a good thing? And no, I'm not kidding here. How can you state above you're not into training a dog but do choose to work on behavioural issues? In other posts you talk about setting boundries, rules ect (which is the way it should be) yet here you state you're not into training. I can't see how you can't infer training and behavioral issues are not remotely related in this matter. If a dog has behavioral issues its either because of a mental disorder/bad breeding or not being trained at any time in its life. I think THEN you have a behavioral issue and you need to train him (yes, starting with sit, down, stay) to get him back where you want his behavior to be. I'm cool with you quoting Cesar but I'd rather hear more from you on how you look at things - afterall this is what the benefit of such exchanges offer us all - a personal insight on how to get the best out of our dogs. Yeap, i never showed my dog how to sit, lay down, roll over etc. I would answer your question with another one: Do you think that a kid that does not play a musical instrument can be well behaved? or only the ones knowing "tricks" are the ones able to be good kids? A pack of dogs has the members well behaved, they hunt, play and have discipline, boundries and limitations and i bet not even one knows how to sit on command, that discipline is given by the pack leader, a dog can be well behaved without any OB, the dog does not need to know how to sit on command to know that he has to follow rules so i think the part where you say that behavior problems can be in part for not to be trained in his life is actually not true Do you see in a pack of dogs that the pack leader says "sit" to any follower who did something wrong, do you see that the follower is like "excuse me leader, you never showed me how to sit so i dont understad why i should not eat before you"? Those commads were invented by humans to make them really verify that the dog is behaving So yes, you can have a dog well behaved who does not know any trick, if you dont believe me you dont have to, just watch discovery channel and see if a wolf pack does that to eachother
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Post by Richard on Sept 22, 2006 17:36:39 GMT -5
Yeap, i never showed my dog how to sit, lay down, roll over etc. Ok, fair enough..you're not expecting your dog to do anything out of the ordinary. So I would assume if someone came over to your house your dog would greet that person at the door and expect them to run around the house with them in "pack fashion" - I mean afterall, if you say sit or down, you're dog would look at you like, "who me?" Ahh, good question. I won't answer your question with another one but I'll reply to your comments: Since we always flip-flop between the humans and dogs around here, I might as well keep it going: Say you've got a kid at home. If you've taken the time, she has the foundations of learning the rules of the house, how to behave with you and others and knowing not to cross lines with her parents. She is a good kid whether she plays guitar, swims syncro or soccer or chooses to do nothing at all (which really isn't an option on the table)....regardless, to use the dog term, this is basic OB and she is expected to know these rules and if you're a parent out there, you know exactly what I mean here! The things I noted above are diciplines (soccer, guitar, syncro) and if the kid wishes to persue them, she knows that there will be expectations of her to put forth an honest effort. To do all this she also needs to have the basic skills of respect, listening, honesty and integrity. If, as a parent, I don't take the time to show her how to behave or respond (politeness, courtesy) or give her any clue of how to handle day to day situations, she will do her own thing and be generally out of control and not easy to deal with...don't believe me, watch Nanny 911!! Dogs don't have the capability to have such emotions/behaviors but having said that, I still need a way to keep my dogs under control and lay out what is expected of them regardless what situation we encounter during the time we're interacting together or out in public. That is where training comes in. Your point is noted but again, I'm getting mixed signals here. See, I don't see the alpha dog teaching the other members how to pee and poop and where exactly they should go in the forest!! I'm not talking tricks here either, I'm talking simple, keeping your dog under control, OB training. If you want to see dogs who do tricks goto the Circus - even they have to listen to commands too. I won't hijack this thread anymore but you're not convincing me that a dog doens't need any OB training here. It's not a matter of believing you or watching the Discovery channel, it's more a fact that, while many of us think the pack mentality is a good way to work with our dogs, you still have to accept that with no training, they'll run your house, your life and basically be a hellion on 4 paws and cuz that person never wanted to do any training (nor behavioral interceding as you would put it) the dog is the problem so off it goes to the pound as "uncontrollable". Cesar maybe on top of the game when it comes to solving dog behavior problems but even in his book he says (and I'm paraphrasing here) if you want to learn about how to make your dog sit, down or stay, go read another book so even he acknowledges that there has to be basic training to have a well behaved dog around. One last point: most, if not all of the problems he deals with and writes about are about people who never did try to put a minute of training into thier dogs and/or let them take over their lives completely.
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Post by Aussienot on Sept 22, 2006 17:56:53 GMT -5
Umm, I don't know about you, but I don't have a wolf pack in my living room for Discovery to film. And I don't think I'd pop them in my car for a quick trip to the shops if I did.
I have two real life dogs that not only respect my leadership, but that have the manners to go anywhere and do anything. They can sit quietly when told to, they can wait patiently when told to, they don't mark on the sofa, they crate up on command, they don't steal my food, and they don't poo on the carpet.
These are all 'tricks' that they have been taught because they are companion animals that I have trained to live by the rules and expectations of my pack. I need the leadership NILIF structure to control their minds, and I need the obedience to control their activities. So to have a sane household with my real life dogs, I need BOTH.
The obedience was trained with positive reinforcement. In Sailor's case it is verbal praise, and in Finn's case it is food or toys. It's pretty well established that tiring a dog's mind is a much better way to dispel stress and energy than purely physical activity. Making them do leaned tricks, such as agility, tracking or retrieving is one of the ways a busy working person can give a dog an enriched life. Activities that engage the mind in this way usually do require training.
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Post by willow on Sept 22, 2006 18:49:53 GMT -5
espencer85: I only have one question. When did basic obedience commands such as "sit", "come", "heal" and " down", which insures a well behaved dog, become "tricks"?
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Post by espencer85 on Sept 22, 2006 19:45:10 GMT -5
1.-Ok, fair enough..you're not expecting your dog to do anything out of the ordinary. So I would assume if someone came over to your house your dog would greet that person at the door and expect them to run around the house with them in "pack fashion" - I mean afterall, if you say sit or down, you're dog would look at you like, "who me?" 2.-If, as a parent, I don't take the time to show her how to behave or respond (politeness, courtesy) or give her any clue of how to handleday to day situations, she will do her own thing and be generally out of control and not easy to deal with...don't believe me, watch Nanny 911!! 3.-Dogs don't have the capability to have such emotions/behaviors but having said that, I still need a way to keep my dogs under control and lay out what is expected of them regardless what situation we encounter during the time we're interacting together or out in public. That is where training comes in. 4.-See, I don't see the alpha dog teaching the other members how to pee and poop and where exactly they should go in the forest!! 5.-I'm not talking tricks here either, I'm talking simple, keeping your dog under control, OB training. If you want to see dogs who do tricks goto the Circus - even they have to listen to commands too. 6.-Cesar maybe on top of the game when it comes to solving dog behavior problems but even in his book he says (and I'm paraphrasing here) if you want to learn about how to make your dog sit, down or stay, go read another book so even he acknowledges that there has to be basic training to have a well behaved dog around. I've added numbers to each point to answer better: 1.-My dog wont come and "greet" a person to the door, she will "see" who the person is but i will be always between her and the person, she can smell the person only after she realizes that i agree with that, she does not have to sit to stay in a place quiet or just walking around the house and away of the person who came 2.-Politeness, courtesy are manners and then again you can teach that without having to teach th dog how to sit or lay down on command, the dog does not have to have the butt in the floor to be polite 3.-Why you feel that you will have your dogs laying down to have them under control? do they run around without control if you dont do that? i dont need her to be on the floor to have her under control 4.-So if i feed a white shark should i do it from a boat or getting inside the water just because thats more natural? This point is just matter of healthy enviroment and prevent sickness for feces inside the house for humans so since health is involve here then there is nothing to discuss; in the wild they dont have to worry about that they can go wherever and whenever, they dont go where they sleep, we are just telling them than the place where they sleep now is the whole house, nothing different about it 5.-You know (and always knew ) that when i say tricks i am saying stuff like sit and stay, i dont know what a circus has to do with anything here 6.-I would have to disagree there, he does NOT acknowledges that you need basic training, he is just saying he does not do or need that to have a well behaved dog, he is not like "train your dog first and THEN read my book" You can see it with homless people's dogs, those dogs dont know when to sit or lay down on command but they are waaaaaaayy better behaved than a trained dog who knows that If your dogs behaved by sitting down and stay quiet thats good, i am NOT saying that does not work, i'm just saying you dont need that to have a well behaved dog
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Post by espencer85 on Sept 22, 2006 19:45:47 GMT -5
Umm, I don't know about you, but I don't have a wolf pack in my living room for Discovery to film. And I don't think I'd pop them in my car for a quick trip to the shops if I did. Wait, did i say I HAVE wolf pack in my house and i would like to film them for discovery OR did i just say WATCH discovery channel to see them? because i dont know what made you think that somebody could have a pack of wolves inside a house? Let me see: Me: "if you dont believe me you dont have to, just watch discovery channel and see if a wolf pack does that to eachother" Aussienot: "Umm, I don't know about you, but I don't have a wolf pack in my living room for Discovery to film" Unless your living room is an European forest or your live in the Discovery Channel Studios i just cant see why you came up with that answer
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Post by Am on Sept 22, 2006 20:56:05 GMT -5
I personally believe that having a good, respectful relationship with your dog is vital. But that doesn't mean that you don't also have to teach your dog manners and commands. Even if your dog respects you, he's not automatically going to know the correct way to behave in human society. He might be born knowing how to behave in dog society, but human society is different.
Dogs aren't born knowing that running onto the road is dangerous, or that chasing cats is bad, or that they have to recall when we say "come", or that nipping a pesky human kid like they would nip a pesky puppy is a death sentance. You have to teach the dog appropriate behaviour for these circumstances. He's not automatically going to know how behave in this circumstances just because he respects you.
I mean, what happens if I let my dog offleash at the park, and he starts to chase a cat? He's not going to stop just because he respects me, not if I haven't taught him any commands. If I haven't taught him any commands then he won't have a clue why I'm yelling at him. He might even think I'm urging him to keep chasing! He'll only stop because I've previously taught him the commands - "wait!" and "come!"
Or what if he's at the park and picks up a piece of dirty looking meat. He's not going to know that I want him to drop it just because he respects me - I have to tell him to " drop it" before he will know what I want. So what do I do if I haven't taught him the command " drop it"? I can't even physically take it off him if I haven't taught him the command "come!"
And I think Aussienot has a good point. Dogs aren't wolves. Most reliable sources I've studied seem to suggest that they are closest in behaviour to wolf pups, which would make them neotenised wolves - wolves who have retained many juvenile behavioural patterns, wolves that don't act like proper grown up wolves no matter how old they grow. So studying wolf behaviour can't possibly provide us with all the answers about how to relate to our dogs, since our dogs are very different from wolves.
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Post by espencer85 on Sept 22, 2006 21:22:59 GMT -5
You can have your dog doing what you want without teaching any commands, humans comunicate to eachother with words, dogs dont speak english, they can relate the word with the command but since they dont speak to eachother you dont have to say "wait" to make him stop
If your dog chases a cat is because you let him be "free" in the park but if you have it without leash but next to you then he is not going to chase anything, the dog knows he needs "permission" from the pack leader to do whatever
Dogs read and sense the energy you are projecting maybe the only thing you have to say is something like "ssshh" and thats it
I dont have to says the words " drop it" to making him not to touch the dirty meat, just "hey" or "sshhh" and he will sense that he is about to do something i dont want him to do
I say to watch wolf packs because since here in USA you dont see street dogs like in Mexico then thats the closest you can relate
K9Rocky asked me, i answered, if they dont want to believe that you can have a well behaved dog without teaching him any commands then that means its too complicated for you, if you need to use commands to be able to handle a dog well good for you, i dont, i am not saying that then i am better than you but i simply dont need to talk to make my dog not to do stuff that i dont want her to do
Just like PP trainers think that without treats they can't do anything, so like i said, if is too complicated for you then dont ask, i explained with apples and oranges, you didnt get it, there is nothing else i can do then, we can be here for hours and the result will be the same
Conclusion: I can, you can't (or dont want to), nothing else to say
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