Are haltis/GLs all they're cracked up to be?

[Am]

Hi folks...

I've heard rumours that the halti/GL has caused neck injuries in some dogs. That makes sense to me, since so far as I can see all a halti does is increase the leverage you have on a dog's neck. If he suddenly lunges into the halti that could put a whole heap of pressure on his neck vertebrae, and I imagine that could cause injury.

However, my entire obedience/agility club is very PP. They won't hear of a thing against the halti, and many of them are quite upset that I would choose to use a check chain on my dog instead of a halti (just wait till I get that prong...)

I don't really want to bash their tool of choice just on hearsay. Does anyone have actual first hand experience that shows that GLs can injure dogs, or maybe know of a scientific study ?

Or is the " dangerous halti" thing just another urban myth?

Thanks!

[Laura]

I am not a fan of any head halter, I have personally witnessed a dog (greyhound) snapping it's neck from the improper use of one (needless to say, the dog had to be put down ).
Even Suzanne Clothier, a noted Positive trainer, is against the use of them, here's a link to her article.
www.flyingdogpress.com/headhalters.html
I had a study on it somewhere, let me see if I can find it.

[sibemom]

I have never understood the rational of using a head halter. To me it is just totaly rediculous. Not only can you cause severe damage to your dog especially if they are an extreme puller but I do not see how you comunicate your training to them by pulling their mouth shut or putting extreme pressure on the pole, every time you correct them or they correct themselves. I think there are many more options out there that prove to be safer and more effective. Heck a simple check chain/choke collar is far better then these devices. This is what always makes me laugh, people say how cruel a prong collar is but yet they would chance sever spinal injury to their dog by using one of these, and usualy the people that put up the biggest fuss about the prong or check chain are the PP trainers who adovcate the head halters/halti's GO FIGURE

[ladyarya]

I've never been a fan of them and found prong collars to be quite successful on all my dogs without being cruel.

But I think what gets me about them (aside from the obvious dangers that I think have been pointed out quite well ;D ) is this:

Boo is a big panter. Really, he even pants in his sleep. He was also a big puller back in the day. So why would I want to put something on his face that is going to close his mouth every time he pulls? He'd spend the entire time with his mouth closed and not be able to pant. Maybe its just extreme in his case, but that just seemed mean to me.... Like forcing someone to wear a heavy winter fur coat in FL in August and not giving them any water.

Or maybe I'm overdramatic but I couldn't get it out of my head that it just felt wrong to do to him.

[Tammi21]

I am just so glad that the pet store didn’t have any in Jetta’s size, when I went to get one.
The vet recommended the Halti to me for Jetta’s pulling problem.
But after much research into the prong collar, I opted on the prong instead of the halti.
*Kisses the prong collar*

[Am]

Laura - Yup, I'd really appreciate you digging out that study if you can find it.

I found another good article on it, though again there's no stats:
www3.sympatico.ca/tsuro/_articles/gentle_leader.html


Now that I think about it, it's obvious why dogs look so upset wearing GLs. Since grabbing a dogs muzzle is a signal of dominance, then walking round with pressure on their muzzles all the time is going to make a dog completely miserable.

That's way worse than a prong, since the prong only corrects the dog when he's bad. A GL corrects the dog all the time, even if he's being good.

How has the GL ever found a place in the Purely Positive "no adversives" dog world?

[Laura]

Am, I'm sorry , I went to CIAS site where I thought I had seen it, but it was a student abstract, not a formal study, so I can't really use it to bolster an arguement.
But I could have sworn I saw more than one, I'll keep looking (cuz I love research ;D, geek that I am).

[Am]

Hey Laura, if you can find it that would be great, otherwise no sweat.

So far (apart from your greyhound) I can only find a whole heap of anecdotal evidence that haltis can actually injure.

I did find one article that especially cautioned against using a halti on bull breeds though - perhaps I can pass that one round next time someone glares at my choke chain, lol.

www.cahas.bravepages.com/Injuries%20from%20Head%20Halters.html

[Aussienot]

Most honest Purely Positives will admit that they only know the one style of training. And the fairly confident ones will admit there is the occasional rare, clearly termperamentally unstable dog, once in a while, who take a 'bit longer' for something like a confirmed puller, or a dog aggressive dog.

Put a halti on it, and hey, presto chango you've elimiated the pulling and the minimised the SHOWS of dog aggression. So positives like it because it give the appearance of broadening their range without having to actually train . . . . (wow, someone must have put nasty pills in my coffee this morning)


I can see a use for head halters as the lesser of two evils - if a 'lawn ornament' dog pulls so much it never gets out for walks, and if by wearing a halti the dog at least gets a little exercise, then they are not entirely bad.

I do think for a really dog aggressive dog, while you are establishing the rules, it can help to use a correction collar and a head halter, with a separate leash on each. The head halter can be used to gently reinforce the "hey focus on MEEEEEEE" by guiding the head just slightly.

I did use one on Finn this way, but gave it away as soon as I felt I could. As an alternative to chucking it into the landfill (again the lesser of two evils) I gave it to someone I worked with who had three huskies who never got out of the backyard . . . .

[Am]

Yup, that's pretty much the way it was presented to us at my first obedience course, as a "miracle cure" for dogs that wouldn't walk on lead.

Noone in the audience (including me at that stage!) seemed to realise that it didn't CURE anything, only masked the pulling.

Incidentally, none of the dogs that tried it on liked it on the first go. Most shook their heads and pawed to try and get it off, some whined, some completely shut down. We were told that if we kept it on they would "get used to it".

It weirds me out that PP people will champion something that's so clearly adversive to most dogs. It's not only punishing them, it's punishing them for no reason. Why not just stick a prong on them?

And no, in case you were wondering, I'm not going to get one for Monsta!

[Brooke]

Hey Laura if you find that study... I think I'll pop this in the training articles section.

[willow]

Don't know how I missed this thread, but it's probably a good thing I did, since I am "anti-head halters to the extreme!

I got into a huge debate with a lady on another dog site who "claimed" she wasn't against prong collars and said she even uses them, but she also uses a Head Halter on one of her dogs. Then she went on to say that neither of her dogs will listen to her unless they are wearing the head halter w/out the leash attached, and the prong collar w/out the leash attached. I can understand a dog wearing a collar, but I think it would be a rather ridiculous site to see a dog running around wearing a head halter as it would a collar.

She and other's on the site also said you should never pop a prong collar, but that the dog should "correct itself", then when I described how I teach a dog to not pull on a leash with a prong collar, they turned around and said one should never, ever let a dog hit the end of the leash and correct itself with a prong!

After telling this person where to go, literally, I have decided that it is a complete waste of time to try to reason with PP people, because they are truly of the "one method fits all dogs", mentality and are incapable of using the power of reason.

[Kona]

Am, great articles that you linked to. Thank you!

I am now in the process of training one of my students to use a Gentle Leader with her rescued Aussie mix. I tried and tried to show her how to get the dog walking nicely with a loose leash and a flat collar, but she (the student, not the dog) is completely clueless. This will be the first student that I have ever suggested using a head halter. Yes, I've managed to go 15 years without needing to resort to one with a student.

I was trained very well in the use of head halters, and I've tried to stay on top of the current information regarding their use, but the more I get to know them the less inclined I am to use or recommend them.

[sibemom]

I just got done screening another potential adopter, and we had a long converstion about the Halti. A trainer they had hired for their previous dog was all PRO HALTI and said it was the only thing that would cure her dogs problems. Well thank goodness these people have some brains because they were just as disgusted with the darn thing as I am. They hired another trainer, who recomended a pinch collar and some other tecniques to try and that worked so much better and eventually did not need to use it anymore. I just feel there are so many other options out there that this is one tool that IMO has no place. HALTERS ARE FOR HORSES

[Laura]

HALTERS ARE FOR HORSES

AND FOR SMALL CHILDREN TOO ;D!

This is OT, but this reminded me of when my kids were little and we used to go down the shore.
Well, trying to watch two little boys on the beach who were 13 months apart was like trying to put out a fire with spit, so I went and picked up two harnesses and a runner line , and screwed the two of them into the sand (not literally, mind you!). They had enough line to go to the waters edge and back to me, and I never lost them.
But dear god, the dirty looks I got from the little old
ladies passing by, you'd have thought they would have called CPS on me!