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Post by gsdmom on Jan 21, 2006 21:23:37 GMT -5
I just wanted to say, (even tho this is a late post but since I just found this forum I am trying to catch up), that Kona needs to update themselves on Petsmart training practices and hiring practices. I see that Kona has an Avatar that looks like the background at Petsmart, and the grad hat matches those used at Petsmart, so I figure this is where they got there info, and experience with how they teach..unless you work for Petsmart or DID or know someone that works for them. Trainers are good and bad, check with them, ask them questions, Petsmart actually let's you WATCH a class going on. It is for General Pet Parents like has been said on here, not for competition OB. I have talked to allot of trainers that work for them, and some don't know enough and others know ALLOT! They don't just say what is co.policy, if they have wisdom to impart upon you because you asked they will tell you, but when it comes to aggressive dogs to people or other dogs there is a large liability to consider, if they give advice and it was not followed to the LETTER and something happened guess who the owner comes after??? When a trainer tells someone something they think it is gospel, same as a vet, If you are not a certified behaviorist, licensed and gone thru a school to give you the knowledge to deal with this then you should not be giving advice, even tho you may know how to fix the problem, like was said every dog is different, since Petsmart trainers are not allowed to go to your home they can not know if you are doing what is said, shoot most people don't even practice with their dog, the simple stuff. And there is further to go in the training field at Petsmart not a "manager" position either, it's called senior trainer and Area Trainer. There are also positions further up that help deal with trainers and such. Watch a class, talk to the trainer, decide for yourself. Thanks I just wanted to get that off my chest, appreciate it..
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Post by Summer Magic on Jan 22, 2006 7:47:54 GMT -5
I went to pet stupid to audit a class once. I was not impressed with the trainer and her techniques. As you have so correctly put it. The trainer isn't able to answer all of the owneres questions about behavior and she didn't seem to be able to get her lesson across to the class. We watched for almost the whole hour the dogs were in the training ring (it was a puppy class) and the trainer didn't have sense enough to tell the people to leash and hold their dogs when one was in the middle of the ring doing his lesson. It was a circus. Another thing (kind of related) This Pet stupid had a grooming facility as well and I watched the women behind the glass shield groom the dogs. I didn't like how they dumped dogs on the tables and if the dog heard something and turned his head when the clippers were being used he got konked on the nose with the clippers. They aren't ever gonna groom my dog.......
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Post by gsdmom on Jan 22, 2006 12:01:03 GMT -5
Yes allot of times it's the trainer that's lacking, but she/he is only as good as the Area Trainer, those are the ones that train the trainers. I have been thru the PetSmart program, and I was trained by an Area trainer who had 40 years of Training all kinds of ways and she also Showed and competed with boxers. Since I had 30 yrs experience when I started I didn't have to do much to pass the test and train classes. I GOT 120+ hours of curriculum/On hand/work with dogs kind of training, thru Petsmart. I teach body language & calming signals of dogs, How to say hello on leash, How to tell if your puppy is bullied, the growing stages of a dog/puppy, aggression possession, Dog/dog reactive on leash, Tail chasing, and much more. ALL OF THIS, THAT I JUST MENTIONED IS NOT IN THE PROGRAM. You get that from my 30 years experience, so don't lump all of us in with the few trainers you have run across, that were lacking because the Area trainer did not teach them, (right now my trainer left her position, a new girl is doing it), I have trained longer than she has been alive, when she talks to me she calls me her MENTOR, she learns allot she says. I have talked to other trainers also outside of Petsmart, and 9 out of 10 were so egotistical it was hard to swim thru the Bull, I almost didn't get to talk to them. But I don't lump everyone in that category, I get to know them first then decide. I keep myself updated on my own, because I CARE. I go to these forums and glean info from some, and go to seminars when I can afford it. I am sorry some of you have found the Petsmart trainers you have met, "lacking", the company is trying to get everyone on the same page, but being so large and over 700 stores, it takes time, has anyone written them on line or letter to say your opinion of the trainer you watched? Let them know a trainer needs more training, or what you saw, it's one way to tell them, they can't watch everyone, some slip thru the cracks, they do want feedback, that's why they changed the program in August of 2005. Thank you for listening, and keep up the good work, we need to weed out the bad.
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Post by Brooke on Jan 23, 2006 0:34:28 GMT -5
It's really the "one way to train a dog" mantaility that I don't agree with. I feel there is a place for "Postitive Training" in dog training. (I however do not feel there is a "PURELY Positive" place in dog training... I feel it's too extreme.) Most of the trainers I have come acrossed at Petsmart tend to be along the lines of "Purely Postitive" and they feel that is the ONLY way to train a dog. I took the liberty of training a dog about two summers ago. The owner and I were both dragged into the store with a 95 lb pitbull...SOLID MUSCLE. This dog was rediculous. He was spastic on a leash. He knocked over diplays. He dragged a guy who weighed 230lbs around a parking lot. We got out of the car with him and were resisting and he was so strong he was still pulling us around. We could barely control him. He wasn't vicious. He wasn't mean. He was just too excitable. He had no manners. You couldn't control him. He wanted to jump on everyone and everything. He charged doors.... It was rediculous. The employees looked horrified. Some were ticked because we had just made a huge mess of the front of the store. I put a pinch collar on him and within ten steps and a pivit he was walking in a heel. He stopped pulling. He wouldn't sit and as soon as I gave him one pop... he sat. The owner was absolutely floored and stunned. She watched me work him and her eyes seriously welled up with tears. The trainer came around the corner and was horrified. SHE WAS RUDE. Flat out RUDE. Started going off about how we were abusing him and it was wrong. That I didn't know what I was talking about. That there are better more 'modern' ways to train than these 'barbaric methods of torture' and we should be using a GL. I told her I didn't agree with them due to the risk of neck or spinal injuries that could occur with this dog and she told me that was an "ignorant myth" and that the GLs were invented by veterinarians and there is no proof as to them causing medical issues. I said... "Oh yeah? I guess I know nothing then. Hey... go for it, try it... ". I winked at my friend. That woman spent 22 minutes and 41 seconds (I timed her) trying to get that thing on his face and after she finally succeeded in getting it on... a we had ourselves front seats to a pretty nice rodeo once she got a good grip on the reigns. Right there in the middle of the isle... again knocking things around. Popcorn only would have made the show that much better. He was yanking her around. Rubbing his face on the floor. Flailing about throwing himself into everything. It was a mess. She couldn't get him to sit still. She couldn't control him and she had no way to correct him or gain control of any kind short of either whipping his head around, which probably would have given him whip lash or spinal injuries, or picking up the leash still which was attached to the pinch. I took the leash and told her to let go and reluctantly she did. I began to walk down the isle once the lead hit the end he followed... got up ahead of me and I pivited and turned the other way... he came to my side and pretty much stayed with me. Told him to sit once I got to her. He didn't. Popped the leash and he sat. Patted him on the head he stood... started to jump around some... I said no, pop... he sat. She said, real training takes time without the use of tools like that. I laughed and shook my head. Pointed at the GL and said... "you mean like that?" and said, "well, while you spend 30 hours a week trying to train those dogs out there to heel in this store even if it is once a week for the next however many weeks per dog, (I look at my friend and say) why don't we go have a nice relaxing walk with this guy out at the park in about 15 minutes. She didn't even hesitate. Pulled the tag off the pinch and went up and paid for it. She left the store walking her dog by herself for the first time since he was a puppy. The trainer went on and on as we left the store... preachin and all you can imagine. I don't know but I've been to the stores here in Indiana and in North Carolina. They've all had the same superiority narrowminded mantality... but maybe it's just the places I've been. From what I hear... Petsmart as a whole, doesn't want to be associated with that kind of training and they are trained specifically, never to lead in that direction. They brainwash their trainers to steer far and clear from these concepts which may be vital to living with dogs who need them. I just can't stomach that. They won't even refer those dogs. Just kick them out or tell them they should be put down. Apparently if they can't be trained through Purely Positive they are better off dead. I dunno... I'm not a fan. I'm sure there are plenty of good trainers out there in the Petsmart/Petco field but I think it's because they have had previous experience prior. They very well may lay a good foundation for positive training general family dogs and building confidence but outside that scope they fail. Sometimes the last thing a dog needs is confidence and needs to be taught to take it down a few notches. The good trainers in my opinion are probably good because they've been taught elsewhere before entering those stores in that field and know reality before it's mucked up and instilled in them. There is nothing worth learning outside their world. That to me is NOT a good trainer. You should learn as much as you can. To sell something... the best salesmen know all they can about their competition. They know not just within their realm but what they are dealing with and how it works. The pros and the cons... and they need to be able to prove their product is better based on facts not opinions. The good ones have more smarts to get out there and learn. Most of the trainers I have met there... the training the store has provided is the be all end all. Am I rambling enough yet?
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Post by Kona on Jan 24, 2006 12:53:03 GMT -5
Hi guys! It's been a long time since I've been here, but I just recommended this forum to someone who asked for my advice, so I thought I'd stop by and say hi.
I'd like to thank gsdmom and Brooke for their opinions, and I agree with almost everything they each say. Except, of course, that I need to update my info on PetSmart training and hiring practices. gsdmom says that there are good and bad PetSmart trainers, which is what I said. She says that their classes are for general pet parents, which is what I said. Etc.
As far as promotions within the company, I was referring to the incorrect assumption that good trainers go "to the top." My point is that there is no "top." Each store has one or two trainer positions, and each area has one area trainer position. That's it. Good trainers stay at the same level as barely adequate trainers, and if the area trainer position is filled then there's no position to move up into. As I said, if the company likes you and wants to promote you, it's out of training and into management. And managers don’t do training classes.
As to Brooke's story, I can picture all of that happening exactly the way described. PetSmart trainers are not allowed to use pinch or choke collars, are not allowed to use corrections even when it's obvious that a quick leash correction will solve a problem, are not allowed to offer advice regarding aggressive dogs, are not allowed to demonstrate techniques outside of the proscribed curriculum, etc. etc., REGARDLESS of however many years of experience they have outside of the store. gdsmom talks about how the company could be held liable if behavioral advice wasn't followed or went wrong, and she's exactly right. Which is why the classes are exactly the same for every dog, regardless of its actual needs.
When Brooke says that most of the trainers at PetSmart seem to be Purely Positive and of the "one way to train a dog" mentality, it's because that's all they're allowed to be. And by the way, here's their training guarantee verbatim: "If you aren't completely satisfied, you can take the entire 8-week training class again for free!" So if it doesn't work for you or your dog... you can just do the whole thing again?
If you read my posts, you'll see that I offered advice about how to find a good trainer even in a situation like this, but remember that the best-case scenario is that you'll get a really great trainer who is extremely limited with the advice, equipment, and techniques that they can offer. The worst-case scenario is that you spend $99 and get a kid who just spent 80 hours reading books and watching someone else teach classes. It takes less than one month to go from seeing a sign that says "Now Hiring Trainers, No Experience Needed" to teaching your own classes.
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Post by Kona on Mar 3, 2007 15:59:42 GMT -5
I was flipping channels on TV yesterday and I happened to catch an episode of a reality show called "The Real Housewives of Orange County." It's a train wreck of a show documenting the lives of stupid wealthy southern Californians, and I only watched it out of morbid fascination.
Part of this particular episode dealt with one of the teenagers taking her pug puppy to a training class at PetSmart. They showed her standing in an aisle of the store holding the puppy's leash, saying, "Sit! Sit! Sit! Sit! Sit! Sit! Sit! Sit! Sit! Sit! Sit!" while the trainer just stood there watching. The puppy was happy and interested in everything going on around him, and ignoring his owner because he apparently hadn't learned yet what the command meant. The owner said to the trainer, "He's just too excited." The trainer replied, "I have something called Calm Down. It's basically Valium for dogs. It works really great."
I felt like throwing something at the television.
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Post by bobbenson on Mar 3, 2007 18:55:01 GMT -5
I just saw this thread because of a new post. It's an interesting thread. I've had two dogs, boxers, that were well behaved. The thing is, I haven't had to train a puppy in 22 years or so. I now have a 6 month old puppy. I'm kind of like a grandfather that all of a sudden has to raise a 2 year old kid. I know I did it twice well, but what did I do? I build web sites for a living. People believe that they make a web site and they will be rich. It doesn't work that way. You need a lot of knowledge and time to make money at it. But, you have to start somewhere! Dog training IMO is the same. It takes time to train an animal, time to learn how to train an animal if you have limited experience etc. From reading this thread, it sounds like petsmart training is a gamble. One, your dog needs to react well to positive training. The other one is that the trainer may or may not be competent. However, when I walk down the street and see that 95% of the dog owners have no training knowledge, maybe the $99 spent at petsmart will either teach them something or give the dog owners the desire to go out and learn something. Either one may be worth the $99. A general comment: If you have limited knowledge on a subject, in this case dog training, a class or a book is a good starting point. You might buy the wrong book or be in the wrong class but you have to start somewhere. If you, like me, have some knowledge on a subject, in this case dog training, forums and the internet are an incredible resource. Ask pointed direct questions and you will find people willing to help you.
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