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Post by masha on Jul 25, 2005 11:02:16 GMT -5
Anastasia and me are now in the"advanced beginners" agility class, and she is loving it...
Something I was wondering about:
Our trainers put great emphasis on our dogs being excited and revved up when training. Quite a few of the other dogs in the group are a bit timid, sleepy or slow, so they get the handlers to play tug with the dog and so on.
I got the feeling that it was better to work Ana with a toy than food, so thats what i did, and would reward her with a game of tug of war.
Thing is, she does NOT need to be revved up. She is not scared of the equipment, and charges round the field like a rocket. When I play with her or have a toy on me while she is working she gets so excited that she actually will bite me in sheer exuberance, or charge off and do victory laps around the course to everyone else's anoyance.
Since I started using a food treat, all this has changed. She is now very focussed on me, and does not run away once she has completed the course. I just toss her the treat when she has finished and that seems to work fine.
Now I was wonderning - is this OK? Is there an inherent problem with using food as a reward? What should I watch out for?
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Post by gunny on Jul 25, 2005 23:32:42 GMT -5
i do not do agility but i train schutzhund, and there is a difference btween food and toy rewards. in the mind of the dog. a toy= prey, they have to chase it,catch it shake it kill it. all of these things require much energy and she does have focus, not on you but the "prey". now food is different, there is no reason to be energetic, the food does not have to chased, caught, disected or killed. but the dog still wants, not as much energy is required, this is a sort of like energy efficency for the dog. now when my dogs need to be fast and quick, like in protection and some things in obedience. i use the toy, to gain quick energetic responses, when i need the dog to be more poised and focused. i use food. but there is a cost, drive, prey drive produces a much more "hyper" or " driven" dog, now from what you describe about your dog, you have a primew sport dog, that could be very successful. now, this is how i feel about "the others", your dog is having fun and doing well. doing victory laps and showing drive is not something that should be frowned upon. without those things you have nothing. a dog that is not driven is like tire without air. i personally would rather have to hold a dog down, so to speak than to pump them up.
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Post by Laura on Jul 25, 2005 23:40:40 GMT -5
Gunny, I agree with you about the dogs drive, but in agility, harnessing that drive to stay on course is a necessity, and if the dog has good drive without having to "rev the motor" so to speak, then I too, would use food to keep the dogs focus. Now, if you're talking Schutzhund, then I say use the tug or ball, because it's all about the drive on the field in that sport .
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Post by gunny on Jul 25, 2005 23:54:01 GMT -5
i hear you laura, my three objectives in training are is the dog happy, is the dog driven, is the dog confident. now, everything else is managabel and just details. my dogs bark when we train obedince an no no in a trail, i never make thm be quite in training. because i want the dogs to be in drive an be happy. at a trial i will tell them quite when we get on the field. as for my post i was not trying to get her to use the toy, just stating the differences in the reward. this is magic of dog training. is finding out what works.
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Post by masha on Jul 28, 2005 8:45:02 GMT -5
Thanks gunny, that makes a lot of sense to me. It makes me understand why things I have tried in the past have worked, or not worked.
And what Laura says makes perfects sense to me as well. Some of the other people in my class have a hard time convincing their dogs not to be scared of the equipment, but its just a matter of time before their dogs will go over the a-frame or the see-saw, and then they will probably be better off than me...
Their dogs have a lot of control, good recal and so on. With my Ana, I am so proud of how she has such confidence, loves going over and through everything I can set her at from the word go - but getting her to listen to me and do things in the right order and so on is going to be a challenge!
Luckily she seems to love that feeling of "getting it" and understanding what I want. She just recentlyl learnt how to wiggle through the sticks - you should see her frowning as she wiggles, and then breaking out into a big happy grin as she comes through the last two sticks!
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Post by Aussienot on Jul 31, 2005 22:58:57 GMT -5
One of the benefits of toys in agility is that it builds handler focus. Being around other dogs under the excitement of the next run is extremely distracting to the dog, particularly one without a strong work ethic. The dog can only tug if he's focused on you to exclusion of all other things. Toys can also be used to deliver the reward at a distance, for example to throw ahead of the dog after a jump.
For good or bad, the ability to play as a reward or while building enthusiasm has become a litmus test of how 'connected' your dog is to you in Agility circles.
To complete a course, the dog needs to be in the right state of mental and physical arousal. Too much and he will be out of control. Too little and he will be disinterested and sluggish. Know your dog. Which toys excite without driving her crazy? Which toys/games release prey drive?. If your dog needs to be reved up, toys and the learned ability to play in public are crucial. If your dog has high prey drive and lacks obstacle focus, toys as reward can be counter productive. Engaged prey drive is not your friend on the agility course.
If you can use toys to build focus, great. Use food if it's working for you. There's also a hybrid - the jackpot toy, which the dog needs to bring to you to get the reward. To quote Cheryl Crow, "If it makes you happy . . . .". Go with what works today, and be prepared to change when circumstances change.
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