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Post by willow on Oct 7, 2006 11:29:21 GMT -5
When used properly, crates can be a great way to avoid potty accidents, and the chewing of inappropriate objects around your house, as well as for use at other times when you may want your dog confined for a specific reason.
However, sad to say, so many people use crates in lieu of training and exercise.
Every dog I fostered in the breed rescues that were crate trained, were not house trained and these dogs were over a yr. old! As soon as I would let them out of the crate for some "supervised" out of crate time, they would try to potty in the house and would have to be housetrained like any puppy.
Simply confining a dog in a crate does not automatically house train him.
Because of this, if I had my choice to foster a dog who was crate trained or one I had to crate train, I would choose the one who was not crate trained.
The same applied to chewing and other inappropriate behavior.
The dog still has to be trained not to engage in inappropriate behavior when outside of the crate.
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Post by kaos on Oct 8, 2006 19:02:00 GMT -5
I couldn't agree more. It seems to be a little too tempting for some people to pop their puppy back in their crate every time they are annoying or inconvenient. As we all know with most puppies this would describe almost the entire time they are awake! Puppies by definition are annoying and inconvenient, they want attention and entertaining and have no idea where to eliminate or what to chew. The only way they cease to be annoying and inconvenient is by having them live with you as a family member and learn what constitutes socially responsible behaviour on the human agenda as they grow up.
Sadly, here in NZ many people use the garden or outdoor kennel in a similar way. These dogs have the advantage of having more room to move around and play, but are often socially isolated. Many times at training I have heard 'well we would like to have her inside more often, but she gets so over excited and will wee in the house'. The poor puppies are over excited because they are usually not allowed inside, and will wee because they haven't spent enough time indoors to be housetrained. Usually the owners will tell me the reason for keeping the dog outdoors alone is because they have children and the puppy will bite them or knock them over. Very sad.
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Post by Am on Oct 9, 2006 17:04:34 GMT -5
That's true, Kaos. There seems to be a real culture over here that crates are "cruel". People don't stop to think that locking your dog in the yard really isn't any more humane.
Hopefully crates will become more common and more accepted over here in the future, since I think they really are a valuable tool for most dog owners.
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Post by kaos on Oct 9, 2006 18:17:07 GMT -5
I think that crates or fenced outdoor areas can both be great management tools if used sensibly.
I will never agree however, that long term use of a crate for 8 hours a day while owners are at work is ok. That seems to creep into acceptance in places where crates are seen as acceptable. I wouldn't keep my rabbit in such a small space for 8 hours a day!
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Post by Am on Oct 9, 2006 21:25:00 GMT -5
I certainly don't think it's an ideal situation, but in the grand scheme of things, I think crating during work hours isn't that bad. For example, I'd rather see a dog crated 8 hours a day and then trained and exercised for a few hours each evening, than allowed the run of the house all day but never exercised or trained. Of course, I think an outside run, dog motel or fenced yard would be preferable to a crate, if at all possible.
I know for a fact that my dog is bored stiff when I'm at work anyway. No matter when I come home, he's always snuggled up in his little kennel box, normally sleeping. So the fact that he has a large kennel to live in makes me feel pretty good, but I doubt he'd actually care that much if the space was smaller, since he doesn't generally use it.
JMO.
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Post by kaos on Oct 9, 2006 22:13:01 GMT -5
Maybe I have more active dogs than most, but if I am at home during the day working (and totally ignoring the dogs) they don't sleep all day. They do tend to nap early morning (I guess would be after the breakfast and exercise a bit after the time we would usually leave for work) but are definitely up and looking for trouble after a couple of hours. Even when they are napping they tend to get up walk a few paces and rearrange themselves. They spend time playing and interracting with each other, and their toys, and lots of time chewing bones. They move around quite regularly with their bones from one position in the house or garden to a different one. They move from deck to grass, light to shade depending on how warm or cold they are. They are not wildly active for long, but I think they enjoy having the freedom to exercise choices, even fairly insignificant seeming ones.
Sometimes when I am ill I have an inactive couch potato day. I exert a minimum of energy, but I do move slowly between the couch, kitchen, bed, bathroom etc and wouldn't want to be locked in the bedroom even though I haven't done much. Do I need a 4 bedroom house when I could physically function in a tiny bedsit? No, but it makes me a lot less miserable. Yes, I know, dogs aren't people, but I think we have seen enough polar bears at the zoo to know that animals kept in cramped and unstimulating conditions are far more likely to exhibit signs of stress and discomfort.
I think crating for 8 hours is very unfair. Yes it is great if they receive sufficient owner interraction for an hour or so later in the day but I still don't find it an acceptable solution. Do better or don't own a dog! (this section does suggest I am allowed to throw my little tanty here)
edited to say that my comments don't apply to crating overnight which I dont have a problem with
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Post by Am on Oct 9, 2006 22:33:15 GMT -5
But... if it's OK to crate for 8 hours overnight, then why isn't it OK to crate for 8 hours during the day instead? As far as I've seen, dogs adapt to their human's schedules pretty well. It shouldn't really make a difference to the dog which 8 hours he is cooped up for, as long as he is only cooped up for 8 hours each day. Like I said, I certainly don't think crating during the day is an ideal situation, and I'd prefer not to do it myself. But I also don't think it's necessarily terribly inhumane. To me, how "bad" it is would depend on a lot of other factors (size of crate, how much regular exercise dog gets out of crate, how much mental stimulation dog gets out of crate, whether dog sleeps outside the crate, etc). But perhaps we're just not going to agree.
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Post by kaos on Oct 10, 2006 14:41:02 GMT -5
'As far as I've seen, dogs adapt to their human's schedules pretty well. It shouldn't really make a difference to the dog which 8 hours he is cooped up for, as long as he is only cooped up for 8 hours each day. '
That is right, and a vast majority of people (and their dogs) sleep overnight. This makes it in my book very wrong to confine a dog for a further 8 hours during the day in such a small area. The exception would be if the owner was nocturnal of course and chose to be up keeping the dog awake all night with walks and games. My point is you can't expect a dog to sleep all night, and then be confined all day as well.
Can you imagine the outcry if your local zoo displayed lions in lion sized crates for 8 hours a day and justified it by telling you that they were let out for a run for a few hour in the evening after the zoo closed? Lions in zoos tend to be incredibly lazy and snooze for large parts of the day, far more so than domestic dogs, but still I am sure enjoy the freedom to get up and stretch, interact with each other and wander round and flop in a different spot.
Yes, dogs do adapt because they have no choice, as would most people, but it doesn't make it desirable. If you slept 8 hours at night, then were locked in your bedroom for another 8 hours during the day on a regular basis you would probably sleep a lot during the day too in the absence of any other options (no books / TV / phone etc). Long term hostages and prisoners can adapt to their confinement too. Many office workers don't physically require a lot of work space, but we know cramped 'cube farm' situations contribute to stress related illness, absenteeism and depression. Horses who are boxed for too long a period of time are known to develop stereotypic repetitive behaviours such as weaving and wind sucking, and have a higher chance of developing stomach ulcers, despite being given plenty of exercise every day (think race horses who are trained religiously as well as often being swum or spending time on a walker etc before going back to their box).
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Post by willow on Oct 10, 2006 16:06:22 GMT -5
I am in total agreement with Kaos on this one, and I am sure the "old timer's" here would attest to my "rants and raves" about dogs being crated for 8-10 or more hours a day while people are at work. It has always been my "stand" that if you are going to be away that long, at least put your dog in an outdoor kennel where he can go potty if he has to. I know I can't hold it for 8-10 hrs. (except at night) and I surely don't expect my dog to, even though most people say, "but my dog has no problem holding it during the day." How do you know he has no problem? Just because he doesn't go in the crate/house? It is also a known fact, that dogs that are made to hold their urine for long periods of time, just as humans, have more bladder/kidney infections. As I also always say, " don't get me started". This is and always has been one of my pet peeves.
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Post by kaos on Oct 10, 2006 16:26:54 GMT -5
'It has always been my "stand" that if you are going to be away that long, at least put your dog in an outdoor kennel where he can go potty if he has to.' Exactly - and then let them indoors with you when you get home
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Post by Nicole on Oct 11, 2006 16:40:56 GMT -5
I have to say that I agree with the majority here. I don’t like long term crate confinement. I have a dog door so I have always left my dog free when I am away and he can go in and out and pee at his leisure. The area of yard that he has access to is Fort Knox. Incidently, my dog urinates many times a day, not just two or three times. It is always clear urine, no smell and never a whole bladder full. He has no bladder problems. I just think that this is natural for the dog to go when they feel pressure although yes they can hold it if they have to. I have seen dogs who are taken out infrequently urinate and you can smell the urine it is so condensed and they go forever. What I also did was confine the dog to a small doggie proofed area and then increased the area as the dog became more trustworthy. And I spend a lot of time teaching house manners at every chance that I have. I was very lucky. Sunny was a dream. I had one incident with Reign when he was young where he tore every single page out of the phone book one by one (there are 6 billion pages in a telephone book), tore up my text books and ripped the carpet from one end of the room to the other...all in one day. He misbehaved like this only once. He was put back in a smaller area until he was trustworthy. I had moved too fast and he was definitely having a bad day. But, what should people do when they are working if they have no outside kennel, no dog door, no money to pay for a dog walker and a dog that destroys things or could hurt itself if free. Do you think these people should not own dogs if they have to work all day. I am undecided about that. I think if there is sufficient exercise, integration with the pack and mental stimulation, it may work out with the dog in the crate. Although I would not confine my dog to a crate for any extended amount of time. I can’t get past the fact that it is not as natural as people say. Back to the wolf documentaries. ;D Wolves don’t go into dens per se. The only time they do is when the female is having babies and then she will keep the babies in the den (it is really just an area off from the pack, not a hole in the mountain like we envision) and very soon the babies are free to roam and the female is free to come and go at any time throughout. It is voluntary very short term confinement to a small area of forest when the wolves are infants. Now I don’t practice what I preach that is obvious because I do recommend that people who are struggling use the crate to keep from going insane, returning the dog to the shelter, during potty training and to keep the dog safe. But I don’t like an entire day of uninterrupted crating or to use a crate in place of training.
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Post by kaos on Oct 11, 2006 19:30:04 GMT -5
But, what should people do when they are working if they have no outside kennel, no dog door, no money to pay for a dog walker and a dog that destroys things or could hurt itself if free. Do you think these people should not own dogs if they have to work all day. I am undecided about that. I think if there is sufficient exercise, integration with the pack and mental stimulation, it may work out with the dog in the crate. You are right Nicole, it is all very well being 'against' something in principle, but in real life situations we are forced to make compromises at times. I guess where I stand on this one is that if the all day crating is a temporary emergency measure it is understandable, but I think that long term it is our responsibility as owners to find a better solution. I guess the only exception would possibly be an extremely troubled dog, but then in all honesty that sort of dog would probably not thrive in a home where they were left 8 hours a day.
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Post by sibemom on Oct 12, 2006 6:18:58 GMT -5
I will say I am not a big fan of crating a dog for 8 hours or longer and fortunatly I have only had to do that on rare occasions where we would be gone for the day and because I would never trust the 3 of them alone in the house without a human around I know darn well they would get themselves into trouble I am lucky we have a kennel and fenced in area of the yard and most days they are out there then at night they are in the house and they do have the option of sleeping in their crates but with the doors open. Raven just got that privalage but Brody and Willow have had it for a while. I do think though that a crate if used properly is a great way of keeping the dog safe and your house in tact. I know with Raven I keep her on a schedule that will replicate Andy's so that she is well use to being crated. It is not a full 8 hours because he will be able to come home for lunch and let her out etc... it's a hard decision to make but I will have to say that if you make sure the dog gets plenty of out time and excersise I think crates are fine. What I do not like though is what was mentioned when people assume you can just lock the dog up and forget about them that is wrong.
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Post by willow on Oct 12, 2006 12:05:19 GMT -5
But, what should people do when they are working if they have no outside kennel, no dog door, no money to pay for a dog walker and a dog that destroys things or could hurt itself if free. Do you think these people should not own dogs if they have to work all day. I am undecided about that. I don't think they should get a dog. They should get a cat or other small pet.I understand what you are saying though and it is a good point. In an ideal world, people would put the best interest of the dog before their own desires, but that isn't the way it works, and as Kaos said: If the owner's exercise the dog and spend time with it when they are home, although that isn't an ideal situation, most dogs can adjust. The problem I have seen in the rescues is that when the people got home from work, they were tired, hungry etc. and the last thing they wanted to do was take the dog for a walk, and this is what makes me angry, because this is the best way to unwind after a hard day, instead of plopping in front of the t.v. like most people do.
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Post by kaos on Oct 12, 2006 16:50:15 GMT -5
I am lucky we have a kennel and fenced in area of the yard and most days they are out there then at night they are in the house Hmm, my guess is you are not 'lucky' but that the kennel and well fenced area were a result of good planning and management, along with devoting enough time and / or hard earned resources towards putting your dogs welfare high on the priority list!
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