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Post by jothelioness on Oct 13, 2005 15:28:34 GMT -5
we've all heard this before. blah blah blah, breedings wrong, breedings fine, but what is it, really?
i think of the millons of dogs on the streets and in shelters, and yet, we staill add more to them?
why why WHY??? i mean, i know we can't sotaly stop breeding, or there would be no more dogs, but really..
i think it's right to call breeders dog killers. thats just what they are doing. every puppy born in the world is another one dead. and this is ok?
i don't think it is. lets sit back and think about this for a moment.
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Post by sibemom on Oct 13, 2005 17:34:15 GMT -5
I will have to agree and disagree with this. The problem is that to many dogs are left INTACT. Yes there are alot of people out there breeding dogs that at best should not even own one, those are the ones along with the strays that multiply because of not being altered, that we in rescue come across every single day. I would not go as far as to say ALL dog breeding should be stoped because there are so many reasons people go to a reputable breeder for. Example: If you want a hunting dog, you do not go and adopt a collie mix from the shelter. I agree there are way to many homeless canines but it's not because of the good breeders out there it's because of the IDIOT ones that do it for the cash and not to preserve the breed, and the owners that are to cheap or to ignorant to spend the " dOLLARS" to get their dogs altered. I would like to close down the ones that breed just for looks though they are the ones along with the AKC that have ruined many breeds to point of them not even being able to function the way they were intended to.
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Post by willow on Oct 13, 2005 17:47:11 GMT -5
There are a lot of very good breeder's out there, who are doing it to better the breed and not to make money. These type of breeder's only have one litter of puppies a year, or in most cases, not even that often, and they are also very careful about who their puppies go to. They do reference checks and talk at length with the potential buyer to try to determine that their puppies will be raised and trained properly. If all breeder's were like this, most of us would not be able to own a dog. I also think this type of breeder would be highly insulted, and rightly so, to be called " dog killer's". IMO the real fault lies with the public who doesn't care if the dog has quality breeding or not as long as it is reasonably priced, and they have no problem taking the dog to the nearest shelter, if their dog is one of the lucky ones and isn't just done away with in some other manner, because shelter's charge a surrender fee, which they won't pay either, when they discover that dogs take a lot of time and work if you are going to have a well trained animal that you can live with. Then of course, there are the people who don't believe in correcting their dogs anymore than they do their children and when they can no longer live with the dog because he has taken over the household and is a royal pain in the backside, and probably aggressive to boot, guess where Fido ends up? These type of people are the real dog killer's. Let's sit back and think about this for awhile.
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Post by jothelioness on Oct 13, 2005 20:24:29 GMT -5
*shrinks back* yeah, ok, you've changed my mind.
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Post by willow on Oct 14, 2005 21:47:47 GMT -5
No need to "shrink back".... ;D There are just a lot of things to consider that most people don't think about, such as one thing I did not mention, and that is all the "accident" breedings, which Sibemom did, because of...you guessed it!!! DOG OWNER'S again!!! They won't get their dogs spayed/neutered for whatever reason and then let them run or aren't vigilent enough and the result is unwanted litters, and instead of accepting that they messed up, raising the puppies the best they can and finding good homes for them, the majority end up in shelters or breed rescues...usually along with the mother dog!
As Sibemom said, she and I have been in several rescues and we have see the result of accidental breeding time and time again.
You have not experienced heartbreak until you have seen a female dog and puppies tossed around from shelter to finally (if they are lucky) to a rescue, where they are given a foster home and a chance at a new life.
They come in scarred and confused at being uprooted from the only home they have known and thrown into a shelter with hundreds of other confused dogs who have also been abandoned and who are barking and carrying on. The mother's instinct is to take care of her puppies no matter what, but I have seen less than ideal conditions at shelter's and the mother and puppies are put into a pen where they lie on a cement floor without so much as a blanket!
I have to admit that I could not take it anymore. I was so depressed and had to give up all rescue work. Rescue's help so many dogs, but I grieve every day for the ones that could not be saved, and one thing that really annoys me is that people spend so much time trying to "save" an aggressive dog, when a very sweet dog in the next kennel is pts simply because there is not enough room for all of them.
But, as usual....I have said more than enough.
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Post by jothelioness on Oct 15, 2005 23:33:54 GMT -5
ehh.. way to depress me...
but it's true!!
why... honestly, i can't understand how they can do that...
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Post by Aussienot on Oct 16, 2005 0:07:38 GMT -5
Motive is the easy part.
There are are the delusional and completely uninformed who think their dog is so wonderful, smart and sweet that it must be bred in order to reproduce more just like it.
There are the lazy and irresponsible who simply don't bother to have their animals desexed, don't contain their dogs and don't care if they have litters.
There are those who pump out puppies twice a year, cut corners, and sell them to pet shops for profit.
There are backyard breeders who do it for their own amusement.
There are the "the children must experience the wonder of birth".
There are the "it's best to have one litter before spaying", then who forget to spay.
There are the macho "my dog is not having his nuts chopped".
There are the " desexing is playing god/unnatural/bad for their health".
There are those who jump onto any fashion bandwagon; ie mixing everything with poodle.
Solving it is the hard part . . . .
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Post by Richard on Oct 16, 2005 1:21:09 GMT -5
You forgot to mention the ignorant...
When we're out walking around and people ask about my dogs, I tell them they're BROTHER AND SISTER FROM THE SAME LITTER....now, having made that clear, I still have had the occasional idiot ask, "Are you going to breed them for puppies?"
Just when you think you've heard the stupidest things, you hear that come out of peoples mouths and it makes you wonder about the quality of water some people drink or if it's true, living near hydro lines can damage brain cells??
Rocky and Nikki's breeder is very specific as to who thier dogs go to. I felt honored when they offered Nikki to us as they know how good Rocky is doing - even then, we still got grilled as to who, what, where, when and how he was going to be taken care of. I felt they wanted to make sure he was going to the right place...they were right in doing so.
There is a cat in our neighborhood who is not spayed and has had numerous litters this year already...it runs free and just is the feline sleeze of the neighborhood...why they don't get this cat fixed is beyond me. Thier thinking,"someone always answers the ads for the kittens"...gee, that is nice and lucky too I guess.
Oh, and the "so my child can see the miracle of birth" attitude...well, we had one lady in the place where we used to live who had "the miracle of birth" with her dog three freakin' times...I think her son was yawning on the last run...she had another dog that was never spayed nor taken to the vet for checkups, shots ect ect ...yup, quality dog ownership in action there too eh?
You can't legislate common sense (unless I get into power someday!) but honestly, there are a lot of folks out there with some really messed up, screwed up views of things. Sadly, it's always the dogs who end up with the crappy end of the stick.
Yeah, you bet your ass it's depressing.
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Post by ripley on Oct 16, 2005 15:29:56 GMT -5
As someone who has been putting a great amount of time, effort and money into starting a reputable, ethical breeding program, I take great offense to the term " dog killer". Responsible breeders are not the people you need to be targeting, here. The ones that are the main contributors to the overpopulation problem are the "backyard breeders" who have no clue what they're doing, and who don't give a damn where their dogs go. That is how the dogs wind up in shelters - irresponsible breeders placing dogs with irresponsible owners. Any good breeder will take one of their dogs back at any time. When someone breeds a litter, they better damn well be prepared to be able to accept another dog back into the house at any time for another 10-15 years.
Before you go pointing the finger and yelling 'dog killer!', please understand that not all breeders are the same.
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Post by DivineOblivion19 on Oct 16, 2005 19:48:03 GMT -5
Some strong words you use there, it's pretty insulting. I DO NOT breed and I highly doubt I will ever consider it. But I think it is going over board calling ALL breeders dog killers.
I work for and am excellent friends with someone who breeds Dobermans. She does all of the health testing needed to breed Dobes and is extremely picky about homing her pups. She doesn't do anything irresponsibly. Her pups are socialized to the max. She loves her dogs very much and breeds to better the Doberman. One day I will have one of her dogs, I cannot wait. ;D I couldn't even imagine the reaction that she would give if anyone called her a dog killer. It would hurt her to no end.
On that note, I've been working as a vet assistant for 7 years and I hear/see a ton of idiots!!! I want to flip whenever I see these idiots who have 2 dogs that "accidentally" breed. But I have to keep my mouth shut.
I have a congenitally deaf Boston Terrier. She is one amazing little dog. Her personality is great, she's got her CGC and TDI and has recently begun competing in agility. She goes to work with me all the time and all of our clients know her. I had her spayed a long time ago but I still get people who say, "Are you gonna breed her?" or "Why did you spay her? She's such a great dog, she should have been bred." Ummmm, I'm not sure if you've caught onto this or not, but... SHE'S DEAF!!!! THAT'S A GENETIC " DEFECT." Why in the world would I breed such a dog? People are so stupid.
People are certainly the problem, but it's hard to pick a place where to begin with controlling breeding practices. But I definitely don't think that stereotyping is the place to start.
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Post by willow on Oct 17, 2005 8:50:51 GMT -5
I don't like the term "back yard breeder" either. There are "back yard breeder's" and there are "back yard breeder's".
I heard years ago, from professional breeder's with a kennel full of quality dogs, that "back yard breeder's" were anyone who only had a couple of dogs at most, "in their back yards", and who did not go into it professionally with a kennel etc. They also usually bred their female dog(s) to male dogs whose owner's responded to their ad in the paper for a "stud" for their female, with out regard to health issues either dog may have etc.
I think that is what most people think of when they hear the term, "back yard breeder", but not all "back yard breeder's" do it this way.
I know some excellent breeder's, as I have said, who only have one female and who do get a "stud" dog from some where else, but their female dogs have their Ch. points before breeding, and they make sure their female does not have any genetic defects she can pass on and are healthy. They are also very picky about the stud dog they choose to breed their female with. He also has to have, or be well on his way to having his Ch. points, not in bench, but they have to be a good representative of the breed conformation wise, as well as in what the dog was bred to do, such as herding, Field, etc. That is the most important requirement to them, as well as health.
I would much rather get a dog from one of these "back yard breeder's" than from a big kennel, because I know they have done their research into breeding and are trying to the best of their ability to insure that their dogs are quality dogs in every way possible and also by breeding to a stud dog whose breeding is best suited for their females breeding.
This type of breeder is also very picky as to who their puppies/dogs go to, and like Richard, I feel very honored that even at my age, they very much wanted one of their pups come into my home.
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Post by Laura on Oct 17, 2005 22:03:38 GMT -5
Loey, I know what you mean, and they call them "hobby breeders", which is a far cry better than those who fall into the "BYB" catagory. Hobby breeders are more fanciers of one particular breed, and do their damndest to keep the highest quality possible in their beloved breed. But I'm staying out of this debate, most of you know why .
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Post by Aussienot on Oct 20, 2005 16:34:44 GMT -5
I guess to me the term "breeder" means:
Someone who is doing it for the love of the breed Someone who carefully plans the breeding with a goal for the outcome (ability, temperament, appearance) Someone who understands genetics and bloodlines Someone who will take full responsibility for the lifetime of the dogs they create Someone who will sacrifice their personal interests for the betterment of the breed or the health of their own dog
Everyone else who produces puppies is just irresponsible, greedy, selfish, or a mix of all of these.
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Post by Brooke on Oct 24, 2005 20:06:57 GMT -5
Good thoughts!
I guess the problem I've ever really had is the term "betterment of the breed". So many people have a different definition of what constitutes "betterment". It's a very loose word in the world of dog breeding.
Times have changed so much over the years. Is it better to breed dominant/aggressive lines for past original nature and temperament based on what they were created for? Or breed them now to be family pets? What are the chances they will live their lives to do what they were created to do?
Or breed over worked under socialized show dogs. What "ok's" breeding for betterment what ok's adding to the population...what constitutes betterment?
I'm not taking sides... just interested. Generally what is the opinion of betterment? That is what I'd like to see opinions on. Everyone has a different view on it.
I guess it's more the education that bothers me. People not caring enough on who is getting the right temperament yet continues to procreate dogs. Just randomly throwing dogs about as if anyone should be able to care for them regardless of how and what they were bred. Betterment is great if you are seeking something specific to promote and target those people but is it purebreds that always have to necissarily mean better in those cases?
Maybe it is? Maybe it isn't.
I dunno... I have a pretty awesome mutt for a family dog. I look at her and go back and fourth with it. I see both sides. I've helped deliver two litters of pups and it was an amazing experience but I don't see a purpous in me playing the breeder role. Too many amazing dogs/pups/animals in shelters.
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Post by FlatCoatedLover on Oct 24, 2005 22:00:11 GMT -5
First I would like to say that I am not like to purchase any dog from any breeder because of the simple fact that there are many wonderful dogs (mutts and pure breeds) that sit rotting away in shelters every day. I have no intention to ever breed, show or do anything else that would require "registration". I only want a companion. And for that, most noble or purposes I can always find a pound puppy that fits the bill.
Secondly, if I was every to consider buying from any dog from a breeder it would be a German Shephard. An actual German one, from Germany. There is no chance that I will ever buy a GSD from any "show" breeder. All the comfirmation dogs I have seen there is just no chance i would ever get one. The GSD are the worse of them have hips so out of wack it is a wonder they can run much less jump obstacles and such jumpy, skidish temerments that they would never be able to work. I grew up around german working line GSD that my father trained to be police and protection dogs so I know I am a bit picky on that one. The American lines of GSD really burn me up because I can't figure out why someone thinks that super slanty back looks so much better that and are willing to deal with all the joint and muscle problems that come along with it.
It seems that with all the emphasis on looks the temperment and health of these dogs has taken a plunge. I think the right thing for the AKC (and other similar groups) to do is change their shows to make them more "all around" events. There should be tests to prove than can do what they were designed to do and test that measure the "steadyness" and temperment of the dogs. The for a dog to win best of breed, class or show that would have to do well in all aspects. Those are the dogs, the ones that are solid all around, that should be breed, not just the pretty ones.
And for the record, the ABPT and other bully breed were not originally breed to be dominant or agressive towards people. They were family dogs that were taken into war and used as guardians to protect against attacks by other animals. Properly bred ones will tend to be dog/animal agressive but never people agressive. They should have a healthy distrust of strangers but would never attack unless family was in danger. The stuff that can along later with dog fighting, bull baiting and what not were simply products of male egos. Men trying to one up each other with who had the "toughest" dog.
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