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Post by Aussienot on Sept 19, 2004 23:22:10 GMT -5
Here's a topic that has generated over 200 responses on another board: How to stop nuisance barking in a Sheltie. Barking happens all the time, but the problem is when the owners are not home.
That board is dominated by 'purely positive is the only way people' but no one has come up with a purely positive method of bark control yet (much to the amusement of the 'traditional' trainers).
So the questions up for debate are:
Is there a purely positive way to stop nuisance barking?
Is there a motivational way to stop nuisance barking? What have you done that has worked, or failed?
Citronella collars - worth a try or a waste of money?
Electronic Bark Collars - effective or not?
Debarking - would you consider it? Why or why not?
I'll start:
Woof, woof, woof woof woof , arf, woo woo woo. . . .
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Post by ripley on Sept 19, 2004 23:45:12 GMT -5
IMO... NO. How can you teach the dog "DON'T BARK" when all you do is click and treat when the dog is NOT barking? It's so much easier and simpler for the dog if they get a correction when they bark, and praise when they stop. I have a potential nuisance barker. Ripley would bark 24/7 if I let him. And from my experience with both Ripley and Shiner dog (BIG barker) there is no PP/Motivational way to teach the dog NOT to bark incessantly. If you praise for one or two barks, you surely are praising for 50 barks according to a dog. What have I done that has failed, let's see... -Distracting -Praising the silence -Removing him from the window/putting him inside -Verbal discipline (NO, hush, etc.) -Teaching him to bark, and teaching the 'shut up' command (Worked GREAT for awhile until the joy of the barking became greater than the reward I had to give) Waste of money. A lady at agility class has them, I tried them on Ripley and Dakota while they were barking, it didn't even faze them. Some dogs actually like the smell. (BUSTER. He licked at the citronella candle we had sitting on the table one time) BUT, if you're at your wit's end, anything is worth a try. Possibly. It can deliver a more effective correction, but it's not ever safe to leave it on while the dog is unattended, which is usually when dogs bark. Yes I certainly would consider it. But ONLY if: -I'd tried everything else -My landlord said that I was going to have to get rid of the dog if it didn't stop barking -I was WANTING to get rid of the dog because the barking was driving me insane I'm not a fan of debarking, and it doesn't last (you get that awful raspy bark after a while) but if you're desperate and losing lots of money because your dog is barking uncontrollably (tickets for noise, etc.) it might be a *temporary* solution.
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Post by Aussienot on Sept 20, 2004 1:44:01 GMT -5
I'm putting this one in the 'fantasy' pile until I hear a valid argument in the affirmative. Training can work, but if you are not there to issue a 'hush' command that negates the training angle. And some dogs, herding dogs particularly, are just naturally high level barkers. Training rarely wins over instinct when it comes to barking. A high level of physically activity may help - so plenty of exercise and training and lots of things for the dog to do when left alone. I will admit to being in the 10 - 30% of cases where a Citronella no bark collar worked. Sailor is an extremely soft dog, and absolutely hated the smell of Citronella. Barking was not a habit for her, it was a temporary separation anxiety issue tirggered by a move to a new house. But my trainer thinks they are not an effective adversive, as the smell of the Citronella can linger long after the behavior has stopped. He also has valid concerns about the health and safety of exposure of inhaled citronella which I did not consider at the time. I think in the right hands and with the right knowledge is the best option. My only concern is the cost and training involved. I'm probably sterotyping, but I think a lot of nuisance barking is from dogs that are not getting enough human interaction and activity, so I wonder how many would be willing to shell out dollars for an expensive collar and would heed training on how to use it. I have recently learned that in some cases scar tissue can actually cause the barking to get louder! Dogs use their bark to drive off fearful things before they need to bite. Debarking muffles their way to warn things off, and I wonder if the risk of biting escalates with a weak-nerved dog. Personally, I can't see myself actually doing this to a dog. It seems like a cruel way to make dogs acceptible to society. ( . . . . it just struck me that perhaps it's no crueler than desexing ) I think the muffled squeak of a debarked dog is pathetic. But I wouldn't condem anyone for doing it as a last resort. I like Shelties, but would never 'choose' to own one because I have a very low tolerance for really barky dogs. So I don't know what I would do if barked into a corner.
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Post by Iluvmypup on Sept 20, 2004 15:27:16 GMT -5
Dogs bark for various reasons....fear barking, seperation anxiety, aggressive barking, guard barking.....there are different ways of dealing with each. Shelties are notorious barkers of course, but its usually, in my opinion, because of two reasons...not enough daily attention from the owners, and lack of exercise. Being breed to work hour after hour, they don't have that in an average family. Increase of exercise usually solves a lot of problems. Along with toys and games to keep them busy during the day. I'm not entirely sure what to reply to about citronella collars and electronic bark collars. I don't know much about them, other then the fact that I've heard that citronella collars are often a waste of money once the spray runs out...especially if the dog is smart enough to figure it out. I think they would work if they were INCLUDED with a training regimen though. If used on their own they teach the dog nothing. As for debarking, I'm totally against it. If a person can't deal with training a dog to stop barking, then they shouldn't have a dog in the first place. A dog needs his bark as much as a cat need his meow. How would you have like it if your mom de-talked you when you were small? Actually, that doesn't sound so bad... A lot of times the dog will still 'bark', and its so much more annoying then a regular old bark. You hear a 'rasp, rasp, rasp, rasp' instead of a good full blown bark. And some dogs vocal chords can actually grow back after a while, meaning you wasted all that money on nothing. And its a totally different story then 'neutering/spaying'. Fixing a dog means less pet population, and less dogs being euthenized. De-barking might satisfy the neighbors but really isn't a solution in my opinion.
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Post by Rowan on Sept 24, 2004 2:15:28 GMT -5
Positive method to stop barking I would have to say yes on this one for GSD's. If you can isolate a behavior to a dogs level of understanding then you can direct it. Turn it off and on so to say. Even with obnoxious behaviors I teach yes so I can define it to the dog as an action just like sit, then I can teach when and when not to use it using verbal or hand signals. Dogs bark and eventually they pause "positive only on the pause" "ignore the barking" Before you know it you have define two things Bark and no barking at the dogs level then you can apply it to real time environment.
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Post by ripley on Sept 24, 2004 2:56:15 GMT -5
But Rowan, what teaches the dog not to bark? I'm curious, because to the extent of my knowledge, teaching a dog NOT to do an unacceptable behavior usually involves some sort of correction or reprimand.
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Post by Rowan on Sept 27, 2004 23:46:23 GMT -5
Hi Ripley I admit I can not speak for all breeds. I have 12 GSD's at many levels of tolerence ,behaviors and intensities. Any dog that barks eventually breaths even for a second, a small distraction could bring on a pause again even for a second you can gain silence.
Possibilties are endless with what you can redirect it with put a word to or a hand signal too. I use to live on a Military Post people coming and going up and down the side walk at all hours of the night and day getting off work. 3GSDs in the house with the barking was not a good thing with neighbors on each side of me our houses connected. By working with them I taught them that growling instead of barking was good, they all knew "wait" already. If people came to the door yes they could bark, (I encourged their natual behavior) if people were on the side walk wait silence was good and they chose to growl which was ok too, but wait until someone came to the door. Pretty much no one came to the door at 2am in the morning and it was many of nights of getting up from sleeping, going over to them looking out the window with them, I'd agree wtih them that I saw some one, they were correct to alert, it is a good behavior, just sat there working with them to define what behavior I wanted from them with out punishing a natural behavior that is useful when used correctly. Never want to take away something I can use some place else.
My favorite event is that I always left my back door open on post during the night so the dogs could go in and out in the back yard. I had fallen asleep on the couch after a mid shift and was awaken by my dogs growling, coming awake slowly I could see them laying down in the dark by the couch and then all chaos broke loose as all I heard was nails scraping across the wood floors and people screaming. My little boogiers lol had allowed two MPs to enter the back yard, walk into the kitchen and when they were about to pass into the living room where I was, is when my guys let them know there was 3 big dogs waitting for them. I have to hand it to them they did what I taught them "wait" Let it come to you, then you wont have to run so far to catch it lol....as I always joked about it while working with them in the window. lol they chased the two MPs to the back gate and stopped on their own nice and calm though I think they had way too much fun with it...lol...
Separation problems I have never had to deal with, feel in that case barking is not the problem that needs to be worked on any obnoxious behaivor seems to have a root causes that has nothing to do with how the dog expresses it. Fixing a symptom does nothing for the root cause that produces the symptom always fearful it may intensify the symptom they are expressing. As silly as it sounds I really like taking a fearful dog/unconfident dog and working them in agility nothing builds more confidence in themselves then agility work it also builds alot of trust as does any one on one type of training between owner and dog.
Postive methods can take a lot of time when a behavior is strongly ingrained I will be the first to admit it lol. I always ignore it at first, watch them doing it, and then decide what to do with it. Easy to teach a barking dog to bark catch them doing it,, ""Speak"" yes"""treat, praise, throw a toy what ever you do once you get their attention turn it around and paise the silence "hush" yes''' for lack of a better way of putting it "go with the flow instead of fighting against the grain"
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Post by masha on Sept 28, 2004 6:03:22 GMT -5
My trainer told me this about barking dogs:
You cant (and should not) stop a dog from barking completely - a dog will want to bark in certain situations, and in many situations barking is appropriate, like Rowan described.
But its not apropriate for a dog to bark endlessley and nothing in particular, so you should do something about that.
My trainer said that a dog usualy barks as a way to alert you to something you should know about, or something that excites it. You should go and look what the dog is barking at, acknowledge the interest, and then hush the dog. Lots easier said than done, of course!
I wondered whether this would just reinforce the behaviour - if the dog is barking to get your attention in the first place? But so far it seems to work quite well. Of course, this onlyl works when you are around and can jump up to see whats happening. And I dont think it will work in a situation where the dog is already in the habit of barking for the sake of barking.
But in the end I think the whole situation a bad combination of two things - we humans dont give our dogs enough stimulation and satisfaction in their lives, and also, other (mostly non dog owning humans) think that dogs are like machines - they can and should be switched off when not in use.
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Post by ripley on Sept 29, 2004 2:48:35 GMT -5
OK, Rowan..... I'm not understanding this. How is a correction 'going against the grain'?? I've had the opportunity to see a pack of sled dogs, mostly huskies and malamutes (and a GSD mix) interacting with one another. When one of these dogs goes too far in play, tries to steal food, or just annoys one of the dogs higher on the pecking order, does the annoyed 'boss' dog DISTRACT the dog that is misbehaving multiple times??!?! No. The lead dog will bark, growl or bite at the naughty dog to get his point across. I can tell you right now, that a couple of bites from the alpha dog will condition the misbehaving dog to not do that. Dogs understand classical and basic operant conditioning MUCH better in my opinion, than they do with having to process almost human-level 'thoughts' to understand the reason they are being praised for such a subtle action as taking a breath inbetween barks. It is soooo indirect that the dog takes ages to figure it out, whereas a quick correction for the unwanted behavior is understood much more quickly and easily. So, knowing the instincts of dogs, a correction is 'going with the flow'. JMO.
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Post by Rowan on Sept 30, 2004 19:39:00 GMT -5
Ripley you have made some very valid points from your experience. Maybe my train of thought in approach has to do with the level of relationship/ communication between owner and dog and not just the instinctual level of what knowledge the dogs are born with. To say a dog can not learn without correction I can not agree with. What is to correct (in the hands of us humans not what dogs do to other dogs) if the dog has not learned the correct behavior by our methods in the way we are teaching it then who needs correction us or the dogs? If you correct a behavior and it does not change the behavior then what have you taught the dog that they were doing wrong? It sent a message to the dog and the dog is left to figure it out just the same as using positive methods neither of them is cut and dry to exactly what the dog is preceving. But IMO correction stiffles energy can send it off in unpredictable directions, where as positive encourages energy both methods work towards defining through repetition a more desired result. As far correction goes against the grain, as you asked it is an abrupt stop of energy to what ever the dog is doing when they are corrected. Going with the flow for example is not kneeing a dog in the chest that is in the act of jumping up on you but turning to the side and walking encouraging the dog to use that energy to do a bit of heeling with you while they walk off the excitment of seeing you (keep them moving let them use that energy but use it on your terms) make them work for you on your terms with heeling they get over the inital excitment and you can bring them to a sit so proper greetings can be exchanged at a level the dog is more capible to accomplish the desire task you want of them. I have never had an over excitable dog not learn from the experience over a short period of time to learn two things as seperate actions, excellent heeling with lots of happy attention, and to sit instead of jumping to greet. Training is designed to teach, correction is used when learning has not been accomplished.
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Post by Laura on Sept 30, 2004 21:44:01 GMT -5
I must disagree with this statement. A fair and balanced trainer uses corrections only when a learned command is not done. Anything else is unfair to the dog. The sequence is train to a level of understanding, proof that understanding, and then correct for noncompliance. Otherwise, it would be like me allowing my fifteen year old to drive my car, and then grounding him for cracking it up.
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Post by Rowan on Oct 1, 2004 0:17:32 GMT -5
Sorry Laura that is exactly what I mean in my statement . Correction would never be used if the dog was taught correctly in the first place. I did not intend for the statement to be interpreted as to use correction inplace of teaching. Thanks
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Post by ripley on Oct 1, 2004 1:01:04 GMT -5
OK, then what happens when you get a dog that gives little notice to your "hush" command? (And let's say that this dog KNOWS what the word 'hush' means) What do you do when a dog stops for a split second, gets praised, and then goes right back to barking? Isn't that when you would incorporate a correction?
You've made some really good points ;D but I still don't see how you can effectively teach a strong-willed dog to MAINTAIN a 'hush' without some form of correction when he reverts back to barking. I can see that with saying "hush" 45 times in 5 minutes, the dog would not have a chance to bark much, but how do you enforce that when you say "hush", the dog is supposed to STAY quiet? (And no 'wuff, wuff, wuff' half-barks either)
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Post by Rowan on Oct 1, 2004 3:30:44 GMT -5
Yes I agree, I may not stand a chance in my methods if I owned a flock of problemed shelties lol A dog that is excessive in barking could have other issues that need to be worked on first. Barking is not the issue it may be annoying but you can't hope to be successful in any method you try until to work on what is causing it. That is my first consideration for what approach is needed for heading in the best direction. You asked when I would go to a corrective measure if positive did't work? I haven't had to make that choice. I try to feel I have a decent prespective of why I choose a line of approach before applying it and why it would work for the individual. Positive approach does make you think what will you do and where will you take it. I am not soley trying to teach a dog to stop stop stop stop end of story because I said so. I am trying to teach a dog to learn when and when not to use it. I am not always going to be there to enforce that dogs choices it has to be a learning level on the dog to choose from what they have learned. My dogs have previous training foundations teaching them one more thing never becomes an issue. They are used to working what would be the difference in learning to apply simple ob rules that they already know and use sucessfully in other activities. I have a 9 year old whom I retired he digs and barks he is bored no more every weekend traveling to shows, no more going to training classes during the week he can't chase the cats, nor play excessive rough housing games with the younger dogs and do not chase the open range cattle unless they our on our property. Bored I know what it is, barking and digging is only an expression it is not the problem he is bored. Does it bother me NO, Does it annoy me NO.Does it hurt anything NO. can I turn it off and on YES send him and his activity where I want to YES. Does it take anything more then a point of my finger or a hush to control it NO.. Is it something that he likes to do YES that he can do YES. Is it the only thing he does NO... He's a great dog. He helps around the property, helps tend to the other dogs and their training. After we moved here he just one day started taking his ball digging a hole dropping it in the hole barking at it, digging it out. Then trotting across the property with it and doing it again. In this situation what would he be doing wrong that it needed to be stopped completely. If I lived another life some good reason might be (1) it annoys me (2) I work hard for a perfect yard (3)our neigbors keep calling animal control how do you work with it, he already knew the hush from previous learning. For the digging I sat next to him one day while he was digging, I praised him for it, was a nice hole lol...put a word to it "dig" digging" told him yes when he dug. Not much time I gently put my hands on his paws he stopped laid down , told him YES! " no dig". Encouraged him to dig and kept working back and forth with yes dig, no dig. Learning is fun is not a situation that has to be negative for him even when you are stopping what he likes to do. Because of preivous learning skills just took that one time to introduce it and then help him learn to apply it. When we travel to my parents house he can not do the same things he can do at home. Can't dig, can't be barking like that. Is it stressful not to be able to NO. Will he disreguard and keep trying when I am not looking NO. He understands control of it we have conditioned for it just like the long down stay even when another dog has gotten up and running back to it's owner he knows to stay where he is through conditioning experience. Now getting on my Dads water bed is another story but everything comes in time...lol Only if my Dad could keep a straight face when we find him he loves being a ham....
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Post by Iluvmypup on Oct 1, 2004 11:21:51 GMT -5
wow...Rowan, you've raised some really great points. Bravo!
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