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Post by sibemom on Aug 10, 2004 6:47:54 GMT -5
SHOW BREEDERS ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR. For the life of me I can't tolerate the slinky sloppy back's of these Amercan Show Lines. The dogs look like MUTANTS. When I went to see the stock of the Willow's breeder that was the first thing he pointed out to ME, before I even had a chance to comment. He told me "Look at these nice straight backs" he also pointed out the MASSIVE FEET Who gave these idiots the right to decide what a dog is suppose to look like? Blade comes from working line Sibes, he would never hold up in a show ring. Put him in front of a sled and he would make those show dogs all look like CATS. The AKC has lost the whole purpose of what the breeds were bred for. Could you see some of these orthopedic disaster GSD's herding cattle? NO FRICKING WAY. Their BUTT's would get stuck in the mud. Could you see these dainty fluff ball Sibes pulling sleds, HAH! They would never make it out of the chute and if they did they would fall over dead after the first long stretch. Sam had much more impressive German Lines then Willow does, but neither one of them would have made it through a AKC conformation class. Sam would have been discounted because of his VERY straight back, and Willow would be discounted because of her BELLY BUTTON. Does that mean they are not good examples of the breed? NO WAY. Sam had the greatest herding instincts I have ever seen, and Willow's are also pretty strong. Now she has some showlines in her, but not much. Dr. Graves started his Trommel lines by breeding several East and West German Dogs to the old Seigers, and had some very good dogs, which were more well respected in Canada than here in the states. The breeder I got Willow from has an older GSD who is the brother to the dog that Buster Douglas (the boxer) has. He told me that Buster tried to show his dog and was disqualified from the ring because the back was to straight and the head was to big So he ended up going into Schutz with him, and I guess gained many titles, so take that AKC and stick it where the sun don't shine. ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
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Post by ripley on Aug 10, 2004 18:25:28 GMT -5
I think the AKC's "standards" do as much damage to any breed, not just GSD's. Papillons, for example... Believe it or not, these little dogs are DRIVEY spaniels. They love to have a job. Well, in the quest for great conformation, these show breeders are breeding out ALL good temperament until all they have are crazy, hyper dogs with no drive to work or play, OR boring, flat dogs that have absolutely no personality. Ruining a breed just so it fits a written description is almost a crime, IMO. Show breeders compromise almost everything to create the perfect dog. Mhm. "For the good of the breed" my BUTT! I can't believe those people even have the NERVE to say that they're "improving" ANY breed. Improving the breed IMHO is enhancing what it originated to do . Grr.
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Post by Rowan on Oct 2, 2004 2:30:49 GMT -5
OK no one throw stones lol lol I have all American Lines and I am very proud of what my mentor started in 1958 that gave me the lines I have to continue on with. I am not happy with the extreme structures. Can't see one of those dogs running cattle all day long that is for sure. And I am disapointed in seeing dogs who seem so scattered brain in the ring, they never focus and constantly try to run out of the ring if they come near the opening, frankly I would be ashamed to show them it's a working breed highly trainable I can't understand. But there are good well balanced AM lines in structure and working ability so will hope everyone can keep an open mind. (I do not agree with extremes and lack of work ability.) I was always proud to be in the ring with a AM GSD that qualified the certification for patrol/explosive. I was always proud to run from the OB ring straight into the comformation ring and my guy never missed a beat to where he was and what he should be doing in the ring he was in. So as in any breed you have your good and your bad and yes the very ugly lol... I think a GSD should be well rounded in ability, and balanced in structure
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Post by Rowan on Oct 2, 2004 2:40:28 GMT -5
Ok will try one more time on the pictures lol... so sorry to everyone.... if I don't get it right this time please let me know what I might be doing wrong THANKS
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Post by ripley on Oct 2, 2004 3:22:07 GMT -5
Rowan, Major (Is that his name?) is beautiful. (All of your dogs are, I got your PM) Off topic.. but yes. He's gorgeous. But I guess the thing is that the 'perfect' GSD according to the AKC is NOT balanced in structure.. At least not in my opinion.
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Post by Richard on Oct 2, 2004 4:44:42 GMT -5
That is a handsome lad for sure.....I love his coat...beautiful markings.
He certianly doesn't look like the AM GSD's I've seen in the Westminister dog show (get to watch it on Animal Planet)....some of those guys just don't look "right". Major looks like he has an excellent structure - not to the extreme.
Is that you in the shots with him? When were these taken?
Thanks for posting those photos...
And no, we don't toss stones here...you'll find a lot more acceptance than here than at most places...we're just different that way.
-Richard
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Post by ripley on Oct 2, 2004 4:55:01 GMT -5
K9Rocky, I just noticed that Major has the same black tip to his tail that Rocky does.. Very off topic, sorry. Anyway, I watch dog shows on Animal Planet and I go to small shows at local fairgrounds, and I have yet to see a GSD looking as balanced as Major does. IMO, that is what a GSD should look like. Rowan you have a very beautiful dog. ;D
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Post by Rowan on Oct 2, 2004 11:34:20 GMT -5
thanks always nice to be accepted we all can't help to be proud parents lol... I don't feel that AKC's standards promotes the extreme structures as per the written word. What you see is individual inturpretation of the standards. Our AKC standards state most desirable ideas and not exact isolation which I am happy it does in many ways. AKC standards promotes Balance/versatility so I don't blame the AKC standards. Maybe it is because our breed is younger(what? we are just a little over 100 years old now, compared to other breeds) that fads come and go so easily. Think there is alot of awarness to gain back the stronger working ability in AM GSD's, more individual breeders breeding into GE lines and actually doing very well in what they are producing. And a more promoted intrest and participation in local Shultzhund clubs that are more culbs in the US now then before. Tittles are excellent, I give endearing credit to anyone that puts forth the dedication. Would I base my breeding program on a tittle over an undesirable structure or undesirable working ability NO. I would rather have an OFA certification background and longivity in the lines of a well structured and desirable working ability of a family pet sitting in someones back yard. NOT to mention being able to actually breed naturally without 6 breeders doing it for them. I will never agree AM lines don't have the ability to be versitile in working ability. I don't think Americans truly understand or do the work that is needed to bring out those levels in the dogs they have. I don't have a decent shultzhund club here. My only experience is going to one of there weekly trainings and seeing a typical American social gathering everyone sitting around holding on to a dog that they bought already titled. I have not gone back. I would welcome AKC events to be more demanding on the AM GSD. I admire the Shultzhund idea's of showing I would like to know on a total perspective what my dogs are made of exposed to those requirements. If anything has to change it is not the AKC breed standards it is the standars on how we base our AM CH's. I at least use to do patterns in the AKC ring now it is only circle stop circle stop and to see the BOB at some show be one of the dogs that scrambled for the gate running that circle pulling on the end of a lead mindless saddens me. The problem I personally see is if you are a herder you look for proven herders to breed to, if you are into the working trials you look for proven working trials to breed to. If your thing is comformation then you look for proven comformation and yes worse just going after the fads that are currently winning in the comformation ring which is not always the best thing to do. Going only on breeding to the extreme of what your (individual) passion is will never promote a well balanced AM GSD. Do think intelligence is a breed trait, but if we don't develope it to what it could be, it is harder to know if it is there or not. And I don't think breeding extreme working ability is the key either to a balanced GSD. I think it is cutting our noses off despite our face. You have GSD's that are overly strong willed sometimes defient (not a breed trait by far in a GSD), need a heavy hand to handle and maintain, are driven so hard by their nature they are not the ideal level headed dog for an average family. To hear that you have to be a strong owner to keep your alpha status to this type of bred GSD is not correct either. "GSD's are workers of man" not disrepectful or waitting for an opportunity to challenge who is working who. Think structure is the hardest to get and maintain, and the easiest to really take the wrong turn. I think our GSD's AM and GE are a longer living breed easy 13 and acceptable 15 years of age. Its important to me in a breeding program more on how do they grow old then what they might of been when they were a young wipper snapper. we are not there yet on either side AM / GE we haven't found the balance that would truly benifit the breed. I do not want the strict regulations that GE are bound to, it again comes down to interpretion and there is not a uniformity with the GE lines as you would expect having such extreme breed restrictions in place and all the same health issue occur in the GE lines even with breeding restrictions so no we are not ready to go there I am not ready to give that power to choose to a piece of paper in someone elses hands. lol sorry so long ;D Yes that is me in the picture and it was 4 years ago Major is his name and he is my digger barker that I had mentioned. this is him today at 9 years old. Re x rayed him last year and is the same as he was when he was 2 years old will be breeding him in Dec I am happy with the pups he produced that are now 4 and 5 years old. And one of my up and coming pups the litter is due for their x rays in Dec they are simular to Major but not his they are my first faw raised litter and I am excited to see.
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Post by Willow on Oct 2, 2004 14:43:18 GMT -5
Beautiful dogs, Rowan, and like you I agree it's not the AKC standard of any breed that is at fault. I think it is the Judges, because they should know and understand the standard and understand what the dog was bred to do, and should not, IMO, give titles to dogs who obviously cannot preform what they were bred to do, because their conformation is so extreme.
BTW, my first registered dog I purchased in 1962 from my sister in law, was a GSD from American Lines. He was beautiful and built very much like Major, but was darker in color, so I am partial to the GSD too, and I hate what has happened to them.
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Post by Brooke on Oct 3, 2004 1:16:21 GMT -5
I like you too Rowan. ;D If you're gonna breed then that is what I like to hear... I wish more of the breeders today had your ideals. I've helped birth litters and it's one of the most amazing incredible experiences but I'd rather leave the breeding to the professionals who know better. It's just too bad there aren't more like that.
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Post by Richard on Oct 3, 2004 9:55:10 GMT -5
Rowan,
If I understand you correctly, you are not in favour of the extreme AKC standards (or the direction they're heading) and you would like to see more of the working line brought back into the AKC standard is that correct?
By the pictures of your GSD's, I definitely see that you are on the right track...they are a handsome lot....I love the shots out in the fields there...it looks lovely where you live....
-Richard
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Post by Rowan on Oct 3, 2004 19:41:07 GMT -5
Hey Richard, you also have a very beautiful GSD..
I am in favor of the AKC written standards, they are the standards for which my dogs are bred to.
I do not favor the extreme structures that individual breeders produce, that the judges put up as good representivies to the breed.
I want our standards for AKC events to require more work ability from our AM GSD's to obtain their CH's ;D
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Post by Richard on Oct 3, 2004 19:50:04 GMT -5
Ok, thank you for clarifying that....based on what you've talked about and shown so far, I like what you are doing with your dog breeding program.
Would there be any way of changing the AKC's ideas or preceptions based on what is being shown in the rings these days (i.e. extremes?) or is it just a long way to go to get back what may of been overlooked at one point?
I can only appreciate what you must be coming up against in relation to the different breeders out there....it must be challenging or do you find a sort of renisannce of the return to the AKC standards (with the emphasis on returning the working side to the AKC AM lines?).
Sorry, to go on, this is interesting. You are doing something really good with your breeding program and I think that takes a lot of integrity and guts!!
-Richard
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Post by Rowan on Oct 3, 2004 21:31:05 GMT -5
I think the biggest way to change things is for everyone to get out and show their dogs and give these judges something to choose from. Thank you for your support and kind words Richard, can say I have taken some flack lol but it has never bothered me, never made me second guess what I love so much about my dogs and what they have to offer to the breed. I welcome an honest opinion about my dogs so I can continue to evaluate my own opinions. I come from a working back ground was a dog handler for the Army. Solid structure is vital to a working dogs ability. It just makes sense that you can't have one without the other. Honestly speaking I am more worried about fertility problems in the AM lines then where the structure is going, for the future. and that's another can of worms.... Take care
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