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Post by Brooke on Jul 13, 2004 21:40:34 GMT -5
Tell Brian I have to go put my straight jacket on now ;D Haaaaaaaaaa!
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Post by sibemom on Jul 14, 2004 4:42:06 GMT -5
Nicki, you can always add healthy fillers to his diet later on if he still acts hungry. One thing that is really good and yes the raw feeding list does not promote this BUT trust me from experience I cook up rice, and put a little low salt broth with it. It curbs the hunger and makes the dog feel full. After awhile you wont have to do this, but they are so use to feeling really full after they eat kibble this helps with the transtion. Sunny must weigh around 100#'s so he should be getting about 2#'s of food per day. That dose not have to be all meat on bone either, it can be a combination of ground meat with a little cooked rice if you want, veggie mush if he will eat it, and RMB to make up the 2#'s. One of the reasons I was considering staying with kibble is because of the hunger issue. Once I started adding some rice/broth to the ground meat that all passed.. Even though Blade is a light eater he still seems to be hungry sometimes. Willow is a gulper so I had to go MUCH BIGGER and partialy frozen like Amy does. I had great luck because neither one puked or had problems with their poop. The reason I give the Salmon oil and Vitamin E, is because of the lack of varitety I feed. The omega's are essential in this type of diet and if you have a dog like Blade who does not like anything except chicken and turkey and hates eggs you can't hit all the essential nutrients. Magda and Loey are the ones who clued me in to the Salmon oil and even Magda said do not get frustrated if you can't get a great variety of meats so in summer we do Salmon oil and winter we do Cod Liver Oil. I am very proud of you for doing this. I for one feel alot better now that we are back to primarily raw. Eventually it will be total raw again. Hang in there you and Sunny are doing GREAT
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Post by Nicole on Jul 14, 2004 13:00:33 GMT -5
Thanks for the words of encouragement!! But I don't think we are doing so great...yet. Warning: If you don't want to read gross details of poop, don't read further! ;D I found vomit today in the yard. He must have thrown up while I was at work. Thank goodness for the dog door. Then I found what looked like slimy stomach lining and pieces of undigested chicken skin. Then I took him for a walk and he couldn't hold it (we were walking by the stores with people ) and he was straining and then he did a tootsie roll poop and skin came out. Chicken skin. And bright yellow drips. Should I take some of the skin off the chicken. Is tootsie roll size what it should be. It is so small compared to the kibble poop. I am so sorry for being this gross but will this get better.
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Post by amyjo on Jul 14, 2004 14:49:26 GMT -5
Okay, okay ...first you have to remember this is a BIG DEAL, MAJOR CHANGES FOR SUNNY...if I remember correctly all was not calm on the digestive front before the switch...right? Chicken poop does tend to be quite yellow. The size is not really of concern either...it WILL be very small compared to what you are used to...When Elvis goes he leaves about 2-3 pcs of poo the size of my thumb-if that gives you an idea. I am guessing because the chicken skin is coming out the back end - he is having trouble digesting it - so removing it is an option and it won't hurt - can only help calm things down. One other thing to consider is perhaps chicken is not the best choice for him. I bought a bag of wellness for my vacation (isn't that what he was eating with the loose poop before canidae) and I remember that chicken was the first ingrediant. You can try turkey if you want...but I think removing some of the skin is a good start. You probably won't have to do this forever...just until his body learns to cope with these things. Another thing to consider is maybe feeding frozen so he has to work a little harder...gives his digestive juices a chance to get revved up and ready to work on the food. Don't give up girl! It's the right thing...now we just have to convince Sunny's body! ;D
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Post by sibemom on Jul 14, 2004 15:06:15 GMT -5
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Post by amyjo on Jul 14, 2004 15:15:30 GMT -5
Tom Lonsdale feeds frozen!
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Post by sibemom on Jul 14, 2004 15:19:06 GMT -5
That is what I found out later I think it makes sense, I mean especially if a dog is a gulper, and if you really want them to work at their food, to get the stomach juices flowing. It worked for Willow she can't gulp anymore (she does try though .
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Post by Laura on Jul 14, 2004 17:06:17 GMT -5
What's the reason for not feeding frozen ? I've always fed raw partially frozen, particularly in the warm months so it doesn't get funky before they finish it. And Nicki, hang in there, you're doing great!
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Post by Nicole on Jul 14, 2004 17:14:10 GMT -5
And Nicki, hang in there, you're doing great! I am trying to hang... I had to restrain myself from running to the pet store!! I will try it tonight without the skin and see what happens. I hate to mention this in this type of thread but I don't think *I* can ever eat chicken with skin again.
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Post by sibemom on Jul 14, 2004 17:29:44 GMT -5
I am not real sure why they do not recommend feeding frozen, especially when most of them swear by Lonsdales book I thought it was stupid so I did it anyway and then when Amy made the switch and fed frozen, and after reading the book, I felt like I had a brain again ;D
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Post by Willow on Jul 14, 2004 19:52:01 GMT -5
That surprises me about them saying not to feed frozen now on rawfeeding, because I used to read that on there all the time, that for "gulpers" try feeding frozen. I have gone "no mail" for the past couple of weeks due to being so busy, so haven't kept up. Nicki, I'm thinking maybe you should be feeding mostly kibble yet with maybe only one chicken "drumstick" or thigh a day, since Sunny seems to have a sensitive stomach and is having a problem. Then you gradually start giving less kibble and more meat over a couple of weeks time. Having to feed so much all at once, eventhough it is a one protein source may be too much for his sensitive system. As for always seeming hungry, as long as you are feeding enough for the dogs weight and the dog is thriving, and not losing weight I would not worry about it. They will adjust after awhile. Kera is my little "piggy" and always hungry, but after being on the raw for awhile she didn't act as hungry as she did on kibble, because with all the filler's in the kibble, to halfway satisfy her, I had to give her more and she would gain weight. I also feed "table scraps", which Lonsdale suggests, but I go light on starches. When we have spaghetti, with meat sauce, which isn't often because I don't do well on starches myself, I do give Kera some, because for some reason, every dog I've had looooved spaghetti w/ meat sauce! It's like what dessert is to me. ;D Well, I have to go back to my padded cell now. That's funny, and I do understand why Brian would think that. I wondered the same thing about the rawfeeder's when I first heard about it. ;D
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Post by sibemom on Jul 14, 2004 20:09:03 GMT -5
I was told this over and over when I first started on the list, because I had asked the question about feeding frozen, and some woman with alot of Sibes gave me this big speach, I think she is also on TAV, in fact every time I would ask a question she gave me this big speach. She sent me an e-mail once and told me that my dog was mutant because he weighs 60#'s (she also trains them with a clicker : anywho, these were the ones that also said that ground meat was full of bacteria blah blah blah. I just did the research on my own and ignored them. Every list has some fanatics with closed minded opinions
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Post by Nicole on Jul 15, 2004 7:56:55 GMT -5
I gave the chicken without the skin and Sunny would not eat last night. I don't think it was a skin/no skin issue. I think he is sick. He was outside for 2 hours last night (he never stays outside longer than to potty unless someone is with him) and I watched him from the window the whole time and he was straining, then lying down, then pacing, then straining etc. I don't think it is just the raw. I think he has been sick and I would like to know your opinion. I am so mad right now I could scream. Yesterday I got a notice saying that on June 7, 2004, they found coliform bacteria in my drinking water. That they have now rectified it and they didn't tell us sooner because it was not an emergency. That is just about the time that Sunny started with the diarrhea, if I remember correctly. I didn't post about this but a few weeks ago Brian came down with what we thought was food poisoning. He had horrible diarrhea, was throwing up and had extreme dehydration. It started abruptly and violently. He went for a liver scan (to check for parasites) and a blood test last Friday but the doctor never did a stool test. He wanted to wait to see the results of the blood test which we have not yet been informed of. Brian is just now starting to get better. I never drink tap water. But now that I recall, I did have a mild stomach upset for a few days in early June before Brian's "food poisoning". I didn't think twice about it. I use tap water only when I brush my teeth. The dog always drank tap water (never again) and Brian drank from the tap because he was too lazy to go into the garage to get the bottled. Brian is going to ask the doctor if it could have been the bacteria from the water. Since the water is clear now I don't think that testing Sunny's stool will show anything but I am going to take him in anyway tomorrow for an exam and test. So I think that Sunny has been sick with this bacteria (he drank so much of the water) and the switch to raw now is not going as well as it might have otherwise. So I feel that I should put him back on kibble and let him settle down and get better and try again with another type of food at some later date. He is really acting sick and I don't feel like I can continue right now. I hope you are all not too disappointed. I tried, but I am too stressed about his behavior right now. Thanks for all your help. I will need it again when we are ready. Do you know that in just 2 days I noticed that his coat was slky soft. That was amazing.
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Post by sibemom on Jul 15, 2004 8:03:02 GMT -5
I know how you feel Sweetie but I am not sure that dogs are affected by that bacteria I might be wrong here and someone please correct me but I don't think dogs are affected by the same bacteria in water that we are. They drink from puddles etc... and maybe it can make them sick but I don't know. I would take him to the vet and see what's going on, it could just be some kind of summer bug or maybe not. You do what you feel comfortable with. No one here is going to judge you if you stop raw right now, but I would wait with that final choice untill you see whats going on. Were here for you and I hope Sunny feels better.
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Post by Willow on Jul 15, 2004 8:09:43 GMT -5
So now the puzzle pieces come together! That's weird, but I was thinking this a.m. (and em'd you) asking if Sunny could have what Brian had!!! I thought maybe they shared some tainted food or something, although dogs usually do not get sick from food like we do! Now it all makes sense, because I have never heard of a dog getting this sick from feeding raw! It's the water!! That is awful that they didn't tell you! I never drink plain tap water either. I have a reverse osmosis filter system and I also give the filtered water to Kera. Poor Sunny. I hope he recover's quickly. I'm sure your Vet will tell you if, and what you should feed Sunny, but kibble is harder to digest than raw, so I don't think I would feed kibble. What is usually recommended is some cooked chicken, chicken broth and white rice. IMO, I would feed something like that or what your Vet tells you and then when he is better, just gradually go back to the raw again.
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