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Post by butterflygirl on Aug 9, 2006 16:24:15 GMT -5
Hi, I'm a newbie on this forum and must say there is sooo much here that I am learning from. About 4 months ago I adopted Alana - a female black lab-pitbull mix (atleast that's what i think she is) from a local animal shelter. She was orginally a stray dog who got adopted and was owner relinquished. Her temperament test records from the shelter stated that she did not get along well with other dogs. Despite this, two months ago I tested out Charlie a young german shepherd pup that i was considering adopting at that time. After a lot of initial barking, she welcomed Charlie right into the family. Now, they get along really really well. Charlie looks up to his big sister and follows everything (good and bad!) that she does. Trouble is, she still does not get along well with other animals. When we walk her, she walks just fine until she spots another animal - cat, rabbit, chipmunk or another dog. And then she gets really difficult to control - lunges out at the animal and just focuses in on the animal. Nothing else matters to her at that moment. I've tried using a halti - all it does it helps me hang on to her but she still lunges out (she's got a super strong neck!) at the animal. I've tried spritzing water or distracting her with a treat - it doesnt work because she doesnt pay any attention at all to me, the water or the treat - she is just totally focused on the animal we've encountered and wont listen to me at all (like i dont exist!). I try to get her to sit and stay, even forcing her into a sit but that doesnt work either because she sits as long as i force her and then she's back to lunging. I thought she'd get more socialized if i let her sit out in the balcony and watch other dogs go by (i live in a neighborhood with lots of pets) but she just barks her head off and trys to jump off the balcony at the dog if she sees one walking by (I get really embarrased and have to apologize to the owner walking the other dog). She's not being friendly either coz her tail's not wagging, she gets all alert and it's more like a maniac bark like let me at him, let me at him! I've taken her for basic obedience training and here's the interesting part. She barked her head off for a while at the first training and then adjusted fine to other dogs being around her. She's fine when she's with the other dogs around her at the training but is still pretty much a psycho when we encounter any other living creature (humans she doesnt mind) on a walk. Like i said charlie does everything she does and so he's now started to bark at other dogs too even though he's only 4 months old and has no clue why he's barking at them. He just does it because Alana does it. I started walking them separate coz I didnt want Charlie learning that negative behavior from Alana and yesterday we encountered a rabbit with Charlie and i made him sit and stay and watch it for a while petting him the whole time and he was just fine with it. How can I socialize Alana to other animals? Please help. I'd really like to have pleasant walks with her and this makes it so difficult.
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Post by willow on Aug 9, 2006 20:15:47 GMT -5
Hi Butterfly girl......
Don't despair, we can help you with your problem, but since it is late I will post a reply tomorrow.
Till then...hang in there. You can fix this problem. ;D
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Post by Richard on Aug 10, 2006 8:41:09 GMT -5
Hi there....
I just wanted to jump in here real quick and tell you that one of the things you should consider is getting rid of that halter with Alana.
She sounds like a strong dog and you need to consider a better way of keeping control of her while you and her are working through this problem.
What this will entail though is changing how you look at training dogs. You've not mentioned too much about your attitude towards training but I guarantee you'll have your hands full once your GSD starts to get closer to a year old. You need to be ready for when he starts to want to push the limits of his behavior with you.
If you've been through some of the posts here, you know that a lot of us use NILIF, pack mentality and when required, prong collars or e-collars and motivational corrections. All those factors are always based on the type of breed and the dogs personality and have to be adjusted as necessary.
Your problems with Alana can be fixed. You may have to make some changes to how you train her (and what type of equipment you'll use) and where you walk ect. You may also have to accept the fact possibly the only other dog she may ever get along with is Charlie.
I just wanted to say this before you start hearing some of the ways on how to solve Alana's problem. Some stuff you'll agree with and others not but you need to know that getting both of your dogs behavior where you want them is the most important thing right now.
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Post by willow on Aug 10, 2006 8:53:55 GMT -5
Richard is correct, so the first thing I would like to know is what you do when Alana focus' on other animals?
The second thing I would like to know is like Richard said...what training tools are you comfortable with using on both dogs?
The number one thing you are going to have to accomplish is convincing them you are the "pack leader'', because right now you are not and Alana has taken over that role, and as you can see, where dogs/humans are concerned, it never works for the dog to be in charge.
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Post by sibemom on Aug 10, 2006 11:17:40 GMT -5
Ok now I am going to add some input to what Willow and Richard both said. Yes what are your comfort zones with training equipment? Or there things that just turn your stomach? Well if the answer to that is YES, then LOOSE THE INTIMIDATION OF TRAINING COLLARS RIGHT NOW! No Halti, no Gentle Leader is going to give you the controll you need of a dog like this. YOU NEED A PINCH COLLAR. I made that sound a little bold but this is not an issue you can fool with you need to get controll and get controll NOW! Richard was so correct in saying you prepare yourself for when your GSD gets closer to a year, they can be a challange, and he was very correct in saying that Alana may never get along with any other dog than Charlie. What you need to do like Richard and Loey both said is to get the dog to focus on you, and the second you see any unacceptable behaviors when encountering another animal POP THE COLLAR, AND USE A TOUCH of Some sort, and a SHHHHHH sound, either a slight brush with your right foot just a tap or a simulated bite with your hand, something. If you encorporate BOTH of these tecniques the problem will start to deminish. You are not trying to FORCE your dog to like every other animal it meets but what you are trying to do is make them IGNORE other dogs, and abide by your requests. I always relied totally on that pinch collar to do the corrections but now I have started using the abouve things that I mentioned along with it, and you know I get a much better response. We have a link here about pinch collars and please look at it. THEY ARE NOT CRUEL, THEY ARE NOT ABBUSIVE they are still in my opinon one of the best training tools out there when fitted and used correctly. We are here is you need us but do not loose heart your dog can overcome this, STAY CALM ASSERTIVE
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Post by butterflygirl on Aug 10, 2006 15:52:06 GMT -5
Thank you all sooo much for your very helpful responses. This really is a superb forum! I do not really have any preconceived notions or preferences for particular training tools. As I mentioned before, I am a novice at training dogs. I have had dogs before (a GSD mix and daschund) but they were dogs that were owned by someone else who had trained them and gave them up when he left the country - so I never quite learned how to train dogs. My only background in training is obedience training sessions from a local trainer (who i must admit i did not learn too much from!) and articles off the internet and using my own common sense. One of the reasons I joined this discussion forum was to learn from people who are more experienced at training dogs than I am. Harsh as prong collars seem, I am willing to keep an open mind toward them and find out more on how to fit one right and decide whether or not I should use one. I need to find out more about them first though. Regarding NILIF, I do use this with both my dogs and have been using it from day one when i brought them home. Alana is very obedient with commands around the house - it's outside the house that she is unreliable. Willow, you asked me what I do when Alana's attention is focused on another animal. I ask her to sit and stay (which she does flawlessly, as soon as i say it the first time and without fail every single time inside the house - i can even get her to stay for upto 15 min in the living room when i am in the bedroom). When her attention is on another animal, she ignores any command i give to her outside during the walk - so she absolutely pays no attention to the sit and stay when i first tell her to do it. I yank on the halti and practically force her into a sit. So she sits and trys really hard to stay but doesnt follow through with it. She scoots with her butt still on the ground but edging forward - funny sight - but i dont laugh coz i want her to know i am dead serious about her obeying me. It's like she wants to sit and stay but the temptation of the animal is too much. I ask her to do the "look at me" command - she knows this command too really well indoors. I can hold a treat in my hand and get her to still look at me in the face instead of looking at the treat. But outside this command means zilch to her. She NEVER EVER looks at me when i ask her to when she is focused on an animal. I have even forcefully moved her face to look at me and as soon as i let go, she's back to staring at the other animal. It's like she is hypnotized by the animal. BTW, if there is no other animal and we're simply walking outside and i call her name and ask her to look at me, she will do it. When we encounter an animal, she locks eyes with the animal and will not want to look away from it. So I then try to walk her away from the animal and as soon as i release her from the 'stay' command trying to get her to walk away, she lunges out at the animal and i have to get her to sit, stay, look at me which she disobeys...and the pattern continues until the other animal is walked away by its owner or the rabbit runs away out of sight etc etc. I guess she tries my patience more now because before i used to force her into sit and stay and pet her and use a happy tone to comfort her but since it doesnt work and she still lunges, i've given up on the soothing tone and just snap at her to sit and stay and look...and embarass myself! I love her a lot and i understand her abusive/stray background and am trying so hard to be patient but somedays it's a real test. I really appreciate all your insights and comments. I'm lucky to have experienced ppl like you to discuss this with. None of my friends own dogs or have been through this kind of scenario and so I feel pretty new to this - thanks you guys!
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Post by Dom on Aug 11, 2006 18:40:08 GMT -5
I guess she tries my patience more now because before i used to force her into sit and stay and pet her and use a happy tone to comfort her but since it doesn't work and she still lunges, I've given up on the soothing tone and just snap at her to sit and stay and look...and embarass myself! I love her a lot and i understand her abusive/stray background and am trying so hard to be patient but some days it's a real test. I am not sure if this will help you with training but it will help with your sanity. If you get upset (and believe me I REALLY know how you feel on that one) and "snap" when trying to bring her under control, try to remember the more you get excited the more she will get excited. Your mood transfers to her. Not the way you might think either. If your tense it will put her on guard. If you are raising your voice then it will be interpreted as your "barking" (okay can't think of another word ) along with her. If you "comfort" her it is taken as praise and that you approve of what she is doing. If there is a constant tension on the leash she will feel it and react by being more intense. My dog is not aggressive toward animals but I would like to share something I did to get her to concentrate on me during high intensity moments. You can take this with a grain of salt because it may not transfer well when working your dog. My dog gets extremely excited around people. She did the same yours did (ignore me completely) if someone came around. She would lung, bark, wiggle, whine and everything in between. To be completely honest she still does this but I have been able to decrease the distance from 100 ft to 5 ft before she reacts. I brought her to an area that I knew people would be close to. People where what got her to react. I wanted to be near them but still able to increase the distance between them if needed. A grocery store with a field beside it. I walked her closer to the people until I saw her beginning to react. I backed up. That was my starting point. I would wait for her to focus on someone then turn and run in the other direction. When she reached the end of the leash she was corrected but also had no choice but to follow me. I returned back to the spot or maybe a few steps closer and wait for the same reaction. When I found she was getting more relaxed closer to people I decreased the distance between us and them. Eventually she would always keep (at least ) one eye on me when I moved in the opposite direction. She would run to catch up so that she was right beside me before the leash tightened. She learned being near me and paying attention to where I went meant SAFE. I praised her whenever she came to my side before the leash got tight. She found out that loose leash not only gave her no correction but also gave her the praise from me. I was given the advice (not on this board) that I should stand right next to the object that caused her to get excited then give a correction. Well I couldn't really give a correction when she was already tugging and pulling on the leash from the beginning. If I gave her too strong of a correction she would shut down completely to me but still do the behavior. Do you have someone you can trust to follow your directions that can help you with her? If they have an calm animal that normally starts her behavior that is. You really need to have no reaction from whatever other animal you choose to work with. I would also tell you not to use the halti. I used a martingale but that is my dog. She responds better to a martingale than she did with a prong collar. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't use a prong collar either. I would use one on my dog if that was needed to get her to respond to me. Some dogs work themselves up so much that it requires you to raise the anty before they even know you are there. You have to match their intensity. I agree with you and would not walk them together until you get her under control some around strange animals. Good luck!
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Post by sibemom on Aug 11, 2006 21:58:18 GMT -5
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Post by masha on Aug 29, 2006 7:44:43 GMT -5
Thanks Dom ! That is excellent advice. It illustrates something I always battle to articulate, which is that dog training is about looking at the problem and finding a solution that works from the DOG's point of view, not from your point , or to prove that your views on dog training are right. Figuring out what motivates the dog to do something ( and thinking clearly about what actually causes the behaviour) and then finding a way to use that motivation to change the behaviour to something more apropriate. And this might include correcting the dog or using prong collars or whatever - as long as it makes sense to the DOG.
Too often a trainer will give the standard advice - " distract with a treat" or "pop the leash" and not realise that when it happens to you, maybe your dog is not interested in food, or is so worked up, popping just makes things worse.
To butterflygirl - hang in there! You are approaching the problem with the right mindset, and lots of patience. Dont feel bad if the patience runs out sometimes - and maybe it should! Otherwise you might continue with an inapropriate technique for too long. Keep track of every small gain you are making - its so easy to forget about the problems you have solved, and then you feel like you are making no progress.
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Post by willow on Aug 29, 2006 15:51:22 GMT -5
Butterflygirl,
You have gotten some good advise from the other poster's.
#1. Ditch the halti and switch to another collar that you are comfortable with. #2. Stay calm and assertive #3. Distract her when she fixates on some thing else.
I definitely would not use treats to distract her. What I would do is give a "shssssssssst," "ah ah," "leave it", "ignore" or what ever verbal word you are most comfortable with, but I have to say that for some reason the shssssssssssst works the best for me. At the same time, with your fingers bent as if you are holding an imaginary tennis ball, poke her on the side of her neck hard enough so she feels it or tap her on the thigh with your foot.
Of course you don't want to kick her, but you want to tap her firmly enough to break her fixation on the other object/animal. I would not praise her at this point. I would just keep repeating this until she calms down and ignores the other dog. Then you can praise her.
Repeat, repeat, repeat until you can walk by another dog at close range without her turning her head to look at the other dog. If she even turns her eyes toward the other dog, distract her in one of the above ways.
The reason I like this method over turning and running in the opposite direction is because you don't want to give her the idea that you are running from the other dog as if it is some thing she should be afraid of. You want her to learn to calmly walk past another dog/animal/person etc., without so much as glancing in its direction.
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Post by maryellen on Sept 26, 2006 12:03:43 GMT -5
hi Butterfly, since your dog is a pitbull mix, she has some of the traits of the pit bull breed- dog aggression. you can not Fix it, you can only manage it.. its been bred into the breed for well over 200 years... to learn about your dogs partial heritage, please visit www.realpitbull.com and www.hwhabullypitstop.com/breedinfo.htm so that you can learn how to manage your dogs dog aggression with strange dogs.. also, never never never leave your two dogs loose in the house unattended, always crate one of them.. a pit bull was bred to fight other dogs, and to leave both dogs loose in the house is asking for a disaster for your gsd... always remember, never trust a pit bull not to fight.. and please, dont hate your dog for what she is, embrace it, learn about it, and learn how to manage her around other dogs.. everyone is giving you great advise, alot of it i would have said myself, so i wont repeat it..if you need any other help, please feel free to pm or email me, as pit bulls are my breed specialty...
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Post by maryellen on Sept 26, 2006 12:05:57 GMT -5
oops forgot something, her drive to small animals and squirrels etc is called prey drive.. some dogs have it some dont.. some go nuts over small critters, some dont.. i would suggest NILIF www.k9deb.com and work with distractions from far away and then get closer over time.. obedience lessons from a private trainer who doesnt hit dogs is beneficial too...
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Post by nicolesmith on Jul 2, 2011 12:41:40 GMT -5
My friend's dog also has that problem. The dog hates other dogs even mine. I wish the information that you said will work on my friend's dog. Thank you!
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