|
Post by Summer Magic on Mar 11, 2006 10:33:50 GMT -5
Hi Everyone
It's been a few days since I reported on Magic's progress. We seem to have the phone thing under control. If she even tries to react mom or I will give a stern lie down/stay and we are free to walk to the phone and answer it, if she doesn't comply she is put in her crate with the door closed. Most of the time now she doesn't even react to it. I'm looking for suggestions as to how to handle the door tho. Even wearing the muzzle she will react adversely by hurling herself at the door of her crate . I've been trying to show her that there isn't a monster on the other side by allowing her to go with me (with the muzzle in place) when I open the door so she can see who is on the other side and as soon as she sees who it is she calms down and greets them like a sweet people loving dog. The trigger is the door knock or the calling of my name or the door bell (which ever they use) As soon as I open the door and let the people in she will settle down and accept whoever is there. So it's not the people its the noise. Should we continue to set her up and knock on the door when it's just mom and me? Kind of like desensitizing her to the knock? I still exercise her at least three times a day (running along with the bike and chasing the ball in the parkway behind our house) and she is a tired little girl most of the time she's in the house she sleeps. I know she's not trustworthy yet and will continue to protect mom from her when I go out of the house alone, but it seems to be turning around some. Let me know what you would do in this situation. I do not crate her every minute of the day, she is allowed to be out if she wants to be, but most of the time now, she spends her day lieing in her crate with the door open. Which is her choice. When I know someone will be coming I muzzle her before they are to be here and when someone comes unexpectedly I order her back in her crate and muzzle her.
|
|
|
Post by sibemom on Mar 11, 2006 11:29:57 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Nicole on Mar 11, 2006 13:15:07 GMT -5
I agree totally with Ann's observations.
As to the doorbell it is really just a question of training her to do what you want her to do. You have to realize that the door is an extreme distraction requiring more intense training and most importantly more intense corrections.
But first she must know what you want. There must be an alternate behavior that she can do to satisfy you.
There is a knock on your door. What is your dream response. Be realistic. Determine what you want and then train as you would anything else. If your dream response is that she has no reaction at all, and slowly and happily saunters over with no energy I think you are dreaming. ;D Oh it can be done but it would involve killing all of her drive.
Sunny is a barking maniac at the door. Believe it or not I say good boy. He knows this is his job and that I want it. But once I say enough he must stop. Or go lie down he must comply. This is highly driven behavior so it takes some work.
Go lie down means go lie down. Failure to comply gets a level ten correction with a prong assuming that she knows the command. Enough means shut up this second. The failure to do this gets a level 10 correction with a prong.
When it comes together it is magical. Sunny ferociously barks at the door, in an intense state of drive. I say good boy. I say enough, he shuts up.
But he learned enough and lie down in a less distracting environment. Then we built on the distractions. It is training with no distractions up to the most extreme. It isn’t going to work if you jump to the extreme. They must learn the commands at every level. Start with the alternative behavior that you want. Teach it solidly with no distractions and build on distractions slowly.
If you don’t want her to bark at all then you must correct at the moment of barking each and every time without exception. This is very hard to do. Letting a few barks then saying enough or lie down is more manageable.
If it is her frenzy you want to stop, she needs to be solid with the down starting under low or no distractions and building up incrementally to extreme distractions which in your case is the door knock. At each level you should proof her before you move on. She should be solid inside before you add a distraction. She should be corrected instantly for noncompliance at every level once she learns the command.
Each time you add a distraction you have to re-teach the commands. A dog that will shhh without much distraction will not understand that command under great distraction. You have to start all over again at each level.
You should train this before you allow her free when someone comes to the door. Until she learns the proper response she should be crated. She should not be free without a leash and prong so you can correct.
But be fair. Teach her what you want before you test the real thing.
I really don't think that sending her to the crate is a good thing to do as punishment. The crate should be a good place to be, a comfort place. Plus, she needs the correction instantly when the undesirable behavior occurs. Bark, enough, bark, level ten correction, quiet, good girl. Or bark, go lie down or go to your place, frenzy, level ten correction, calm, good girl. If your corrections are meaningful and timely you should be able to get this under control.
And quiet and calmness needs to be praised. Listen for the silence. When Sunny lets a male dog pass my house without a bark, he wins the lotto. I listen and watch for no reaction. A lot of people overlook this.
|
|
|
Post by Summer Magic on Mar 12, 2006 7:10:45 GMT -5
Ok thanks guys this is what I'm after, give it to me good. It's hard to see the whole picture when you are standing in the middle of the shot! It's like you are seeing things I am not seeing and mistakes I'm making that I don't realize I'm doing. Thanks bunches. I'll be back for more later I'm sure.
|
|
|
Post by Summer Magic on Mar 12, 2006 7:31:28 GMT -5
My dream response for Magic is for her to bark a few times and then be quiet and go lay down. I have her to help me know when someone is on my property (I can't see my driveway from the living room area of my house). At this point when I say enough she stops and looks at me but then continues to run around and bark. I'll work on enough and go lay down when it's me knocking on the door and see where that gets me. I'm not sure exactly how to implement some of these commands. Should I be holding her leash when I knock on the door and force her with a leash pop to be quiet and then take her to her crate and shut the door? How many times a day should I do this exercise? How do I increase the NILIF? She is not allowed on furniture at all, she does not get any special treats, she is made to sit and wait for her dinner after it's been placed on the floor until I release her. She only has obed training and exercise time. We practice come, sit , lie down in the house and do road work for heal and sit stay. All of her toys have been taken up and I decide if we play with them. That's why I think she's in her crate all of the time. I have been leaving the door open and she goes in there to sleep rather than on the floor because she's hiding from me....The door of the crate is now closed and I will be the one to decide if she goes in there or not from now on. If there is anything else please feel free to let me know, you cannot offend me with posting the truth as you see it. I'm the one who needs the training right now so I can do it right for my dog.
|
|
|
Post by willow on Mar 12, 2006 8:50:34 GMT -5
Ann and Nicki gave excellent responses! Of my two dogs, my female Aussie Kara is very reactive to everything she sees and hears. Buddy, my BC does not react to anything...except squirrels or rabbits, that is! ;D Kara will even bark madly at people she knows, like if the neighbor comes walking up on the deck or my husband comes back inside/home after being out of the house. Once she sees who it is, she is all wiggly and friendly. Now when some one comes to the house, or she hears a noise outside and starts barking, I let her bark a few times and then point at her and say "SHHHHHHHHHHHT" as Cesar taught me. ;D I used to tell her "enough", but believe me, the "SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHT" works a lot better!! ALL dogs just seem to automatically respond to that sound, but you have to say it authoritatively! When I do that, Kara just automatically goes to her bed and sits or lies down and is quiet! When some one comes to the door, Kara barks furiously too, and runs to the door. When I get there and see who it is, I give her the "SHHHHHHHHHT" and she backs off and stops barking and I open the door. I do it this way, because I have not had an aggression problem with her, plus she is always a good girl and isn't all over people either. She's just nosey and wants to see who it is, and then she is satisfied. OTOH, if I did not take control of the situation, she is the type of dog who could be taught or allowed to bite very easily! One last thing, because Magic has already bitten, along with the "SHHHHHHHHHT", as Nicki said, I would also give a level 10 correction if she immediately does not back off and be quiet.
|
|
|
Post by Summer Magic on Mar 12, 2006 9:19:51 GMT -5
I understand that correction has to be immediate and she does get corrected when I can catch her. (which can take up to a minute if she is running in a frenzy) Exactly what is a level 10 correction? She has a martingale collar not a prong. I order her to her crate and catch her leash pull her out of the crate and make her lie down. It's the catching her when there is an unexpected stimulation that I have a problem with. I'm trying to simulate the unexpected with her so she gets corrected immediately but it's hard to do if I can't catch her in the act.
|
|
|
Post by Nicole on Mar 12, 2006 10:17:46 GMT -5
Ok, first, do not practice yet with the knock. That is the end of the line. Practice under less triggering distractions. You say that she does OB in the house. That is not enough. There aren’t distractions in the house.
Take her out. Down stay outside, down the block, in the park by the store, everywhere where there are distractions. And I hope your down includes stay. Then when she is solid under all kinds of distractions you move on the knock. There are threads here that deal with teaching stay...time before distance etc. Read them.
When I got Sunny he was untrained. He did his commands perfectly in the house. He wouldn’t sit outside. I had to teach him again. Now he will sit or down with a dog nearby, his biggest distraction. Do you see what I am saying. If I went right to the dog, all he would ever learn is that he is being corrected.
Down stay with small distractions, medium distractions big distractions then the trigger.
You have the idea but you aren’t doing it right as far as the corrections. Dogs do not connect a correction that is more than a few seconds away from the behavior. For all she knows you are correcting her for scratching. If necessary you can try to bridge the correction saying No, No No instantly until the leash correction or sssssssssssst, ssssssssssst, ssssssssssssst pop. Put on a longer lead...10 ft if you have to. The correction should be instantaneous or not at all.
For a correction to be meaningful it has to be one that is stronger than the drive to act. The dog has to want to avoid the correction more than he wants to engage in the behavior. For instance, if you say no, Magic would flip you and bark bark. But a level ten would get her to say Ok, barking isn’t worth that correction.
When a dog is without distraction, it takes a lower level to stop the behavior. Lets say Sunny is going to pick up my sneaker. I can look at him sternly and he will stop. Lets now say that there is a dog coming toward my house. He will not notice anything less then a level 10 to stop his behavior.
Level 1 is no or a stern look, 2 is a light tug on a flat collar and a 10 is a prong correction that makes the dog yelp. It has meaning. The dog likely should not repeat the behavior after one or two of these corrections.
It depends on the dog and the distraction. I don’t need a level 10 except for passing dogs. If I gave a 10 correction for a minor behavior Sunny would probably shut down.
I think that magic needs a strong correction for this frenzy barking behavior.
But and this is important, with regard to a command a dog should never be corrected unless it understands what you want and you are sure of that and the dog deliberately refuses the command. Magic does not understand down stay with distractions yet so you have to work on that before you correct her for not down staying.
And look for opportunities to teach shhhhhh or enough outside of the knock situation. That is tough because she may not bark. So you may have to teach that with aversive training. Bark enough or shhhhht, bark, correction. It may be the only way.
A martingale is inadequate for corrections. It is barely a level 2. You should use a prong. Again, if you can’t correct immediately then do not correct.
As to the nILIF, keep up what you are doing. You control her environment. It is also an attitude which is just as important. You have to stand tall and feel your superiority.
|
|
|
Post by sibemom on Mar 12, 2006 10:26:45 GMT -5
Yep a martingale is not what you need here AT ALL As good of a device as those can be, IMHO they are for dogs who are ALREADY TRAINED and just need that slight reminder A pinch collar is the only thing besides an e collar that will give you complete controll. Now let me elaborate on the crate thing. I KNOW I KNOW they say you are not suppose to use a crate to PUNISH THE DOG, and maybe I don't use it in that sense but I DO USE IT for taking a dog out of a situation that for what ever reason I can't get them to comply. YES I GUESS I DO USE IT FOR A TIME OUT but I never act as if I am punishing them when I put them in their crates I always just say OK ENOUGH BED, in a firm tone so I don't think mine veiw it as punishment. That has always worked for us, and they still choose to go in their crates to relax and just get out of the main stream. When I said about you CONTROLING HER CRATE TIME, I did not mean to not allow her to go in on her own, what I was getting at is that SHE DOES NOT DICTATE WHEN WHEN SHE COMES OUT YOU DO Keep at this it is going to be a hard job but if you are still commited to keeping this dog then this is what needs to be done.
|
|
|
Post by willow on Mar 12, 2006 13:45:15 GMT -5
I understand perfectly what you are saying, Sibemom, about the crate, and I guess ideally, you would want to crate the dog before it does an inappropriate behavior so that they don't consider the crate punishment, but realistically, can we always do that? No, and I would much rather take control of the situation, as you said, and put them in the crate rather than have them continue the unwanted behavior or cause harm to some one.
Wouldn't crating them to stop an unwanted behavior be the same as making them "go lie down" on their bed? I rarely crate my dogs, but I do point to their beds and tell them to "go lie down" to control them and stop an unwanted behavior.
|
|
|
Post by sibemom on Mar 12, 2006 14:18:11 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by willow on Mar 12, 2006 17:45:38 GMT -5
Ohhhhh, Nicki....Can you help me out here? I'm confused about the crate/punishment thing. Do you mean you should just correct the dog on the spot when they misbehave, rather than putting them in the crate?
If that is what you mean, then I understand what you are saying and totally agree because that is not teaching the dog that the behavior it is engaging in is wrong. It just teaches them that they get sent to their crate as punishment, but don't know what they are being punished for. Is that correct? But...once a dog is corrected for the inappropriate behavior, and knows it's wrong, is it o.k. to then just "remind" them by telling them to go lie down or crating them if they do it? Especially if there is the chance of the dog causing harm to some one? Or should that not even be done?
|
|
|
Post by Nicole on Mar 12, 2006 18:04:28 GMT -5
Now I am confused!! ;D OK, this is what I mean. The way I read Judy's post was that when the dog did not comply with the telephone issue, she was locked in her crate as punishment. Maybe I misread that. Now I can see crating to give Judy a break and to avoid anger..but I don't think that locking in the crate as a correction works as a correction. But, if the dog is off lead and is out of control what is there to do. So when you have a lot of behavior issues, the moral is to keep the dog on a lead so you can regain control and give a proper correction for the problem. Now, I send Sunny to lie down when a person comes to the door, when a dog passes if I can catch it before the behavior and if not during the outburst because I don't have a lead or a crate. His down is solid and he will comply under extreme distraction which is good otherwise it would be a probelm. So that is the same thing I guess if the bed just happens to be in the crate. ;D And if there is chance that the dog will harm someone then they should never be off lead and should be crated until the training is solid. Giving an alternate command..lie down.. to me is great and if solid, a great way to interrupt or stop the behavior. In other words, the lie down is the response from the handler as opposed to saying stop or giving a leash correction and the dog not knowing what to do instead. In this case then he is corrected if he fails to lie down. I like to give an acceptable aternate behavior. And eventually, that becomes the conditioned response. After Sunny barks at the door he goes and lies down on his own!!! ;D Am I making sense?
|
|
|
Post by willow on Mar 13, 2006 9:25:01 GMT -5
Sorry for confusing you. You said it perfectly. It was my fault. I have to learn to read more slowly and more carefully.
|
|