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Post by Summer Magic on Feb 25, 2006 8:09:22 GMT -5
Hi it's me again. Magic bit mom on the stomach yesterday. She barely broke the skin but it was through three layers of clothes. A full out frontal attack while the phone was ringing and mom was slowly walking to it. She does not react to me like this at all anymore and will comply with my commands but just simply won't accept mother as her superior. I was thinking that maybe we need to force the issue here. Have mom do a couple of passive alpha rolls on Magic to instill in the dog that mom is indeed superior to her. I've used them on her and she seems to straighten up with her behavior after I've released her. Please give me some opinions here
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Post by willow on Feb 25, 2006 8:58:09 GMT -5
Please explain to me what you mean by passive alpha roll.
In any event, I am not in favor of any one but the most experienced doing an alpha roll, and even then I am not in favor of them, because the only time a dog actually grabs another one and forces it down is in an all out fight if the first dog does not submit voluntarily and lie down submissivly in front of the alpha dog. Voluntarily is the key word here.
What you might do, and perhaps this is what you mean by your mother doing a passive alpha roll, is that you put Magic into a submissive posture in front of your mother.
To execute this correctly, the dog must lie flat on its side, with head flat on the floor too, until it relaxes and "submits" to the higher ranking dog standing above it, which in this case would be your mother, before the dog is allowed to get up.
I have seen Cesar Milan use this successfully on aggressive dogs. He makes them lie flat in front of the dog they have attacked, but I don't know if this would work in a case like Magic's.
Maybe some one else here can offer more insight into this. ;D
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Post by Summer Magic on Feb 25, 2006 9:02:58 GMT -5
Well, I mean a non violent action. Where I take the dog by the leash to the center of the room get down on my knees and put the dog on her back and hold her with a fore arm at the throat (without pressure on her wind pipe) and the other fore arm at the base of the rib cage. The dog is completely helpless with this hold and cannot get up. I stare into her eyes for about 30 seconds and then release her, get up and ignore her for about five minutes.
She is always trying to get me to pet her after I do this and I don't give her any attention at all.
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Post by willow on Feb 25, 2006 9:14:31 GMT -5
I would not take her to the center of the room. I would execute it, as I said, at the feet of your mother, and immediately.
When Cesar does it, the dog is on leash, he snaps his fingers, points at the dog and says "sssssssst" and the dog goes down. I have never seen him grab the dog and force him down physically. I have seen him get down alongside the dog after the dog is down, to make sure the dog does not get up until the dog fully submits by lying flat and if the dog tries to lift his head etc., Cesar touches him on the neck and says "ssssssst" again and makes him lie his head back down. He also stresses that the dog must be fully relaxed in the submissive position before it is allowed up or you are defeating your purpose.
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Post by Summer Magic on Feb 25, 2006 9:55:08 GMT -5
Ok, we'll give that a try. She has to stop attacking mom, that is imparative. Mom is on blood thinners and has to be careful not to get cut.
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Post by Brooke on Feb 25, 2006 16:17:37 GMT -5
I would not take her to the center of the room. I would execute it, as I said, at the feet of your mother, and immediately. Timing is EVERYTHING. Just as with any other type of training you have to time your corrections on the spot. They need to know where the bad behavior started and where it's going to end and you aren't going to allow it. Have you been using a pinch collar on her? I'd like to know what led up to her bite. What triggered it? Aggression is NOT something to play around with. Any dog willing to bite... let alone hard enough to break the skin is not something to experiment with. You can probably live with this dog but if the training isn't putting an end to the behavior the only way is that you have to be willing to put her in her place and make her understand she will not win if she challenges you. Beta dog may challenge but they back down and they show weakness and lack of confidence. Anything passive is NOT going to get through. You have to be dominant to get this dog to understand you rule the roost and you aren't putting up with her stuff. It's one thing to passively and slowly roll a dog on her back with a happy tone of voice while you are petting her. It's a completely different story when she's just challenged you and you attempt it in the same manner. Passive at that point is pointless. In my opinion, if you are going to take action you either mean it and be willing to put up 100% or don't attempt it. If you aren't confident of yourself the dog won't be either. That's a recipe for disaster if you start trying but back down when she rises to challenge. The most important thing I can say for you to take out of this post: if you have doubt that you can't finish and put an end to a squabble...bite or none, the dog probably shouldn't be there. A dog who bites and breaks skin, especially through clothing ... is not a healthy dog.
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Post by Brooke on Feb 25, 2006 16:35:46 GMT -5
On another note... did you say you've had her thyroid and all that checked? Has she been tested for diabetes?
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Post by sibemom on Feb 25, 2006 16:48:57 GMT -5
Good points Loey and Brooke Now here is my suggestion. I have been reading about Magic and her issues and one thing that was never tried and believe me it is a strech what I am going to say right now because it took me awhile to digest this post Ok I am on the slow side right now YOU NEED TO MUZZLE TRAIN THIS DOG, YOU NEED TO PURCHASE A WIRE BASKET MUZZLE AND TRAIN HER TO IT. I do not believe that this dog is going to be fully trust worthy around your Mother so you have to think a bit more OUT OF THE BOX If this is a thyroid issue it takes time for meds to work if they work at all, if this is a diabetic issue again it takes time for things to get back to normal and then again some of the behaviors are already instilled. You also have to keep one thing in mind and that is if you look at dogs from a wolf pack prospective who are the ones that are always getting attacked, repromanded etc? The weakest ones and I would consider you mom in that catagory. Magic can sense that she is not EVER going to be a dominant figure because of her health and probably her very gentle nature, so Magic takes advantage of that and corrects her, picks at her, and even if some things have gotten better, to me this dog is just one of those 24/7 constant management dogs. If you choose to keep her the basket muzzle is a great tool. You train them to accept it not fear it and it will provide your mother with some saftey. If this was my dog I would never do a passive alpha role she would have been put down into the carpet THE MINUTE she started this crap as Loey and Brooke both said TIMMING IS THE KEY. I would have held her there fearing for her life untill she either gave in to me OR exhausted her self from fighting. I do not take kindly to biters I do not care what the issues were before I got them or what their issues are now. Every two legged creature in my home is an ALPHA to the dogs even my 5 year old son, so the choice is yours. Try the basket muzzle work her into it and USE IT, get a full blood panell done on her, and if it shows nothing then I would seriously consider for your moms sake finding her a new home. I know that sounds harsh but the HUMANS saftey is much more important than the dog. Good luck.
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Post by Summer Magic on Feb 25, 2006 19:40:16 GMT -5
I was not in the room when the phone rang. Mom was in the living room and as soon as it rang Magic jumped down from her chair and started running in circles and barking. Mom ordered her to her house and the dog turned around and just went for her. I came in just as she lunged and bit. Mom had her arms crossed over her chest so she couldn't reach hands and fingers so Magic grabbed her right in the middle of the stomach about an inch below the navel. The trigger was simply the phone ringing and mother walking to it (she walks slowly all the time no quick movements because of balance problems) I'm seriously thinking of rehoming her. We have been through this for two years now and it isn't getting any better. My vet says her numbers are just fine and there is no physical ailments in her.
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Post by Nicole on Feb 25, 2006 20:16:29 GMT -5
What is the dog doing up on a chair. This dog should not have ANY furniture privileges. She should be on the floor. Have you tried desensitizing her to the phone. Calling yourself from your cell over and over and doing OB. It is so strange that that is an aggressive trigger. My honest opinion is that she should be either under the supervision of an experienced trainer, re-homed to an experienced dog owner who is informed of her entire history and wants to take on the challenge or put down. Your mom is going to get hurt. Her behavior of attacking your mom for walking toward a phone is I am afraid beyond your experience to fix. That she has her own chair tells me that you do not fully understand how to deal with a dominant dog. I am not even sure all of this is dominance in light of the fear biting. I think she is wrong in the head. I am very sorry This is not something that can be diagnosed or fixed on the Internet.
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Post by sibemom on Feb 26, 2006 10:49:54 GMT -5
I agree with you Nicki this is to complex to deal with by internet dog training but I think you are right there is something not wired right in Magic's head. For a Sheltie to act this way or any dog for that matter just proves to me that maybe she has a genetic mental disfunction. I KNOW ALL ABOUT MENTAL DISFUNCTION RIGHT NOW Not trying to make light of this because I know that Magic is loved very much but maybe to much. I think IMHO that the best thing to do is to re home her with someone who can REALLY BE A TERROR OF AN ALPHA, and then if they can't get anywhere with her the proper and most humane thing to do would be to put her down. I know that is heart breaking but it is the most sensable thing. I would never hesitate to do that to one of mine if this ever happened and if there were no underlying medical reasons. I did do it with my lab, she has a thyroid problem that medications were not helping and when she started snapping at small children who before that she adored, that was it. I could tell she was just not a happy dog like she had been the 5 years of her life before she was almost 8 when I made the decison. It hurt like HELL but I felt it was the only humane thing to do. You can talk to us about what you decide we are all here to support you
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Post by amyjo on Feb 26, 2006 12:38:03 GMT -5
Are we sure this is not frenzied mis-directed herd dog energy? Are we all sure we are talking true aggression here? True I am lacking historical context on this case, but this incident sounds to me like a frenzied out of control dog with no outlet for her energy. The energy level itself may be more than the household can accomodate - thus making the situation seem pathological....but is it really aggression?
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Post by sibemom on Feb 26, 2006 12:50:48 GMT -5
You are right Amy I do not think this is true aggresion I think that part of it could be EXCESS ENERGY, and the fact that with MOM being in a weaker state the emotion level in the household is escalated. I don't mean to talk around the owner, not my intention but my thoughts on this are she should be rehomed because it seems like because of all the factors in the household Magic is not getting consistant corrections and that is no ones fault just a situational thing. I think if there is a chance for her to be a good pet to someone she needs to be with someone who can manage her 24/7 and not have to worry about how she behaves with others in the household when her primary handler is not there. I still think she could be wired a bit WRONG in the head but then again untill she is put with someone who is experienced with this type of dog we will never know.
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Post by willow on Feb 26, 2006 15:02:46 GMT -5
I agree that first of all Magic needs more exercise. As we always say, "A tired dog is a good dog", but since this behavior is so ingrained in her now, I also don't think more exercise alone will stop the behavior. She needs constant on leash supervision when not in the crate so when the phone or doorbell ring or another event happens that she reacts to, she can be corrected immediately for her behavior.
I also agree that her present home probably is not able to meet the exercise and training needs of Magic, because dogs who are exercised enough and have a clear picture of who the alpha(s) are, usually do not develop this type of behavior. If they come into your home this way I think it is a fairly easy behavior to extinquish as long as you give them enough outlet for their excess energy and also let them know in no uncertain terms that the behavior will not be tolerated.
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Post by Nicole on Feb 26, 2006 15:31:46 GMT -5
Amyjo that is a very interesting point that you have raised.
The other part of this situation is that the dog was biting the owner and mom in the rear end. If I am not mistaken these rear attacks occurred when the dog was reprimanded or given a command. As soon as they turned their back, the dog attacked from behind.
The rear biting is so typical of a fear biter and yet this frontal assault on mom for attempting to send the dog to her place so she could answer the phone seems dominance based.
It seems odd to have both of these drives operating simultaneously.
The other part of the story is that they employed positive only for two years which did nothing to help and which has brought them to their present situation.
The two biggest triggers are the door bell and phone which sends the dog into a frenzy...am not sure if it is a herding frenzy. The response seems aggressive. The dog tries to bite. The interesting part is that both of these triggers require a person to get up and walk to a place..the phone and door. Would that trigger such an intense herding drive. I don’t know.
I am sure that exhausting exercise would help but I don’t think that is the only issue going on.
My concern is for the mom who is on anticoagulants. When Brian’s dad was on anticoagulants a cut knee was almost tragic.
Another option is to not leave the dog unattended with mom ever. Treat the situation as you would with a child. Exercise the snot out of her...take her bike riding or something as strenuous. Disconnect the door bell and phone...get some other way that you can be alerted to calls and visits until you are successful in desensitizing her...a door knocker, a light for the phone, work on desensitization, get a trainer to work with you one on one (the trainer is the most important step), keep her off the furniture and keep employing heavy duty NILIF. Structure her life. Crate, OB, exercise, crate, playtime, crate, exercise. Do not give her any off leash house free time privileges right now. She should be out of the crate only for structured exercise (lots of this), eating, OB (including desensitization of the phone and bell over and over) and play. You can make a recording of the phone. Start playing it softly and work up to the normal ring. Same with the bell. Make her stay put. Praise for calmness. Distract her before she goes into a frenzy. Correct her for inappropriate responses
It is a huge amount of work and up to you. My first priority would be mom’s safety. I also don’t think that it is healthy for an older person to live in fear of getting bitten.
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