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Post by Nicole on Feb 20, 2004 16:39:08 GMT -5
I didn't see the last few posts when I posted so sorry if I repeated things others said.
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Post by Aussienot on Feb 20, 2004 18:10:43 GMT -5
I can certainly empathise. I adopted a stray mix almost two years ago. That's him on the left. I didn't know much about his past, other than there was physical abuse, no training and that he had missed critical socialisation periods.
It took months to bond, to get some basic OB, to lay down some house rules. Just when I was starting to think it just might work out, he hit adulthood and became dog aggressive. Attacked my other dog, killed my cat, then decided that was fun and he wanted to see just how dominant he could be. He is off the scale in prey/hunt drive, medium in fight drive. His behavior profile came out as "Confident Hunter".
The biggest problem for me as a handler was my own fears. I was really rattled. I had done the best that I knew how, and I hadn't been able to prevent him from being aggressive. I did not know how aggressive he was " destin" to be - would he keep getting more and more agro as he matured? Was I harboring a killer?
The advice you have been given is good. I got professional help with Finn and paid to learn much the same thing. I became a much better trainer, perservered, and today have a really great dog. One of my proudest moments (actually the first time he retrieved was my proudest moment, but this one was close) was the first time we were approached by a pushy Doberman, and Finn stepped back and LET ME HANDLE IT. That's when I knew all the leadership things had worked.
With your dog, he's got a lot more going for him than my boofhead ever did. He's got two loving owners who have tried to create structure and training. You already know a bit about NILIF, and you have an experienced dog handler next door.
With Finn, the "Leadership" training exercises made a huge impact.
The Leader Leads - I had to work on walking though tight doorways with Finn at my side, making him automatically wait while I walked through first.
Similarly, Boundry Training - at doors, gates and stairs - he waits until I go through and does not go through until I tell him.
The other one that helped was Attentiveness Training. Off lead, I had to walk around randomly and make Finn follow me. I could use Good Dog and Yes if he followed, and BAAAH if he lost focus, but no commands. Distance control was similar - I drew an imaginary 6 foot circle around me and made Finn stay inside it just using my will as a leader.
And, the tried and true half hour long down stays each day.
I'll admit the Leadership exercises were difficult at first and I felt they were far removed from the aggression problem, but there is definately a link. Sailor, my Lab really didn't see the point of these exercises because she already accepted me as leader.
With Finn, it was a slow and steady breakthough. Once Finn accepted me as pack leader, his dog aggression went into "remission". The obedience just kept getting better and better and the teamwork and trust skyrocketed. I can work him off lead around other dogs and there has not been a problem. That's something I never anticipated being able to do.
I encourage you to keep going. T-Bone is a lovely boy and you are lucky to have him. Dog aggression is common and not a condemnation of his nature. It also does not evolve into people aggression, they are two different things. I really think you have a good chance at fixing things, and you might learn a lot about dog training in the process.
Please stay on the board and let us know how you get on.
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Post by jbell on Feb 20, 2004 20:23:16 GMT -5
Sibemom and Nicole,
Thanks for the encouraging words. We are absolutely not allowing him around any other dogs now (except KC) and will have to make a judgement in the future about it on leash, but if I had to make the call to day it would be never.
Anyway, the advice on the level 20 correction sounds like a plan.
As for circling behind when other dogs are near what is the regimen for that, how to you attain it? (obviously for far in the future happenings if there are any).
Thanks for the kind words...they are quite cute (which makes the corrections that much harder, damnit)! I know, I know...ya gotta do it. Honestly when I think that way...I just picture Amy's arm!
Farewell for the evening!
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Post by Nicole on Feb 20, 2004 21:02:02 GMT -5
Jbell, based upon your attitude, I think you are going to be just fine.
Remember this. Alpha dogs are very benevolent, kind and loving...until they are forced to do something they don't want to do. This helps to keep things in prespective. Don't mistake kindness and sweetness for submission.
Aussienot your post was excellent. So was everyones. I would love to know how you "will" the dog to stay in an imaginary circle. I would like to try these exercises with Petey. Richard or Ann, I would also like to know how you trained the dog to circle behind you.
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Post by Willow on Feb 20, 2004 21:13:25 GMT -5
Hi Jbell, I'm sorry this happened. Tbone is a beautiful dog and I know how sick you are over this, and the bite is bad! If he had connected with Kylie he would have done serious damage to her too. Everyone agrees he was not messing around. He meant to do what he did, only not to Amyjo. I think we all agree too, that aggression is aggression is aggression, whether it is dog/dog aggression, dog/human aggression or resourse guarding aggression (bones). It is not a matter of "he's onlyaggressive with other dogs, or one certain dog, or he's only aggressive when I get too close to his bone, or try to take it away from him. Any type of aggression should be taken seriously and dealt with immediately. It never ceases to amaze me when people ask, "how much aggression is acceptable when my dog has a bone, " like just because it's a bone and dogs love bones we should cut them some slack. This is ridiculous. I think we all agree too, that this was not the first incident. He has shown aggression to other dogs in the past. Did I miss it, or what did you do the other times he showed aggression? I guess it doesn't really matter, because whatever it was, it didn't impress on him the seriousness of his actions, and that is why it progressed to the above incident. You have received some very good advise. 1. A strict ob regime. 2. Do not allow any aggression or his even thinking about it. At the first look at another dog, he should receive a level 20 correction with a prong collar, as Nicki said. 3. Do not allow aggression over bones, toys etc. EVER. 4. Keep him away from ALL other dogs. There is no need for Tbone to ever be around other dogs. He has been socialized enough with other dogs, there is never any reason to have him around any other dogs again. I think Nicki and Richard gave you some very excellent advise about this. I also agree with Sibemom that what Tbone could be exhibiting is vaccinosis aggression due to an adverse reaction to a rabies shot. Our homeopath happens to feel that any aggression a dog shows is due to this. I'm not sure yet, but I have heard enough evidence to know that in a lot of cases this is true and all it took was for the dog to be treated for vaccinosis to have the aggression completely go away. Our homeopath does long distance treating and she is excellent and reasonable and the only one I am comfortable at recommending. It certainly would not do any harm and very well may do a lot of good to have Tbone treated for vaccinosis along with the other things you will be implementing. I could tell you all the improvements my two rescue dogs have made since I have been treating them homeopathically, but this is waaaay too long as it is, and I feel I'm just rambling and repeating what everyone else has said, plus everyone here is sick of hearing me rave about how wonderful Magda is! So I'll just zip it. ;D
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Post by sibemom on Feb 20, 2004 21:13:38 GMT -5
Well Nicki I dont know how Richard trained Rocky but this is what I did with Blade and it might take more for a dog with dog aggresion issues which we really did not have. Blade does the most awsome finish ;D It is awsome ;D so I took that as my starting point. I would tell him to LEAVE IT and he would stop I would look straight down at him with a glare and say FINISH. Remember I am not a pro so if this is not politicaly correct OH WELL you can all slap me later but it worked. I dont have to say anything anymore I just give him a stare and it happens. Trust me if it worked on him who is the spaz mental of the universe it will work on any dog. We even can walk by those PITS that challanged him way back when and he did react then, now he just circles behind and lets me deal with it. I shouldnt say this but I will, he does this because I require it BUT I also know that if it gets ugly he will also be there if I need him.
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Post by sibemom on Feb 20, 2004 21:26:23 GMT -5
Now Loey nobody ever gets sick of you ;D Jbell I would like you to consider what Loey and I said about homeopathic treatment. My pup was AWFUL and at the point of being put into rescue YES I was considering it Poor Laura I would of called her first you know. He is only 1 year old but the problems I had with him that I find worse than dog on dog were aggresion towards people. I also had a very special dog in my life that had thyroid problems but they were towards humans not other dogs so I do understand about that treatment. Since I have put Blade on this homeopathic treatment all aggresion issues are gone. He still tests me but not in the way he did before. Vaccinosis is a real issue and if you want to consider it Loey and I will be more than happy to clue you in. We converted Amy to raw so Hey we are on a roll. Be tough with Tbone he really sounds like a great dog. Remember one thing we get dogs to be OUR companions first and not to be the social directors of the dog comunity. So if he never gets along with strange dogs SO WHAT as long as he knows that YOU his master is the alpha you will have a long and happy life together. ;D
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Post by Laura on Feb 20, 2004 21:41:21 GMT -5
You guys are ALL over this one, nice job! I have nothing to add to what's already been said so well. I might have taken the little bugger in for a while and let one of the older husky's whip him into shape , and THEN sent him back . Better yet, I should maybe send YOU one of my huskys !!
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Post by sibemom on Feb 20, 2004 21:48:50 GMT -5
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Post by Brooke on Feb 20, 2004 22:30:28 GMT -5
Sorry I'm just chiming in now. I don't have much to add at this point JBell most of the good stuff has already been said but I just wanted to say welcome! ;D When it comes to aggression and dominance issues this is the place to help you find help and answers. You are in good hands here.
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Post by Richard on Feb 21, 2004 4:00:39 GMT -5
Hi there,
The technique that Rocky and I learned when confronted by another dog was learned in our training classes. We went through 3 levels over a period of 30 weeks and for us, it was extremely beneficial since our trainer (who was an expert in trianing GSD's and dealing with aggression problems) knew exactly what was going on with Rocky. Dave also wasted little time in pointing to me as the "at fault" person in how he bahaved....and how right he was. So the training classes were for both of us...
The classes were in a small gym and we would line up with our dogs around the outside. One by one, we would go around the room. This was a setup but a necessary one for Rocky. At first, as soon as another dog came within 5 feet, his hackels would be up ect (him doing his "me boss" crap)...anyway, I had to learn to time the correction with the "leave it" command (and yes, there was a prong on him during all this time). That was the part when we started this routine of him going behind me (which was about 1/2 through the fist level). As the weeks progressed, I became more confident in my role as alpha and Rocky learned more to let me handle these situations with other dogs. We would vary the routine and go up and down through the middle of the gym with the dogs lined up as well. Eventually, when we where in the advanced class, we were working leash free walking through all the dogs with Rocky glued to my side...he just knew not to even think about trying to boss any dog there (or anywheres for that matter).
I knew he was on the right road when nearing the end of the first level, a jrt in the group would come by snarling and growling at him (dog aggression isn't only for large dogs you see) and he just started the get behind me and say "here you handle this nut....".
So it was a learned skill, one that came in handy later that summer when a stupid dog owner and her stupid rottie challenged us while we were walking home from our walk one Saturday morning. The lady was no more than 90lb wet and she barely could hang onto to this female rottie who was about 110lb wet/dry...it was a nasty dog for sure! Anyway, I saw them coming up the street, I crossed (knowing she had no control of this dog) and as we passed, I realized the stupid owner didn't have this dog leashed up...it came charging across the street right at us. I saw this and so did Rocky...his first move was to the front(natural GSD reaction for a dog charging him and me), then I said "leave it" and he moved to the back and this stupid dog blocked our path on the sidwalk....Kinda like a mexican standoff...she wasn't gonna let us pass and the owner was just standing across the way!! So Rocky is behind me saying, "you definitely handle this one!" and I yelled at the owner to get over now and leash up her psycho dog or else I would take matters into my own hands...she sauntered over while the rottie kept moving towards us. I have never intententionally or untentionally hurt an animal but at that moment I would of kicked that stupd frothing whackjob rottie to hell and back if it stepped another foot closer...then I would of kicked that stupid owner in the a$$ too!! (overreaction, no, I have no time for lazy stupid dog owners or thier out of control frothing dog from he11).
She hooked up the dog (finally) and without a word of an apology, walked away (or more like dragged like a kite)....this was one of several meetings we had with these two losers over the next while until they moved out....we were not the only ones they terrorized with thier behaviour either...the last I heard, the stupid dog was dragging one of those concrete benches through a parking lot in another part of town while her stupid owner was shopping inside the store....
Long story, but the point is that, with our training, and continued training today, we handle situations like this with little or no fuss...Rocky's age has something to do with it but he still understands to let me handle these types of situations (and they do happen a lot). That is where the training (that never stops) comes in. We work hard in SAR, he always has dogs within 6 inches of him in OB and free leashed during agiltity...but he's focused on me during all this time...and not on the dog just inches away, that 3 years ago, he would of wanted to boss around.
As Willow said, and I agree, not all dogs were meant to get along, they are not buddies nor are they meant to be forced to do something they don't want to do. I respect this fact with my dog and I don't put him (or me for that matter) in situations we aren't ready for. He'll still sneak in a woof or a few barks as other dogs go by (usually leaping at the end of thier lines snapping at us) like those fish you see hooked and leaping out of the water....
ok, personal hate here...flexi-leads....useless for training, great for antaginzing other dog owners with the slinky in/out motion....they come charging at you, then get reeled in....wee, fun eh? not really, those things serve no purpose and offer no end of frustration when you're trying to get around a snapping doorknob of a dog leaping and growling that goes magically from 4 feet away from its owner to 15 feet in a second! We have many of those around here..one is an 8 month old untrained cockapoo that leaps and jumps and is basically out of control all the time...one night he jumped out of the van he was in while Rocky and me were going past and charged us...Rocky did his thing, I did mine and yet, the owner just strolled over yelling the dogs name.....at this point, I had Rocky's collar moving in circles now and the stupid dog was pushing its nose up his backend like he was on some kind of mission or something...I had to push it away with my foot cuz I knew Rocky wasn't gonna take much more (we're talking a minute or so, but I only expect his patience, like mine to last so long)...anyway, the owner gets there, puts that good old flexi-lead on and walks away...then zing! he's back at us again at the end of the 15 or so foot run out....Rocky lost it at that point and started barking (hey the stupid dog wouldn't leave his a$$ alone...) so I said the hell with it and crossed the street....and these people stand at the bus stop with the kids in the morning and yak at people that Rocky is a mean dog and doesn't like other dogs!....boo freakin' hoo..like I care.....this is while thier cookypoky is jumping and leaping on everyone and messing up thier clothes - gee, if he sits on the twentyith "sit" command, does that mean he's trained?.
Ahh, in a nutshell, NO!
-Richard
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Post by amyjo on Feb 21, 2004 7:35:32 GMT -5
Gosh you guys what a wonderful collection of posts. I knew we could count on all of you! Aussienot I particularly enjoyed your post about Finn. I knew you two had come a long way - but I had no idea how far...wow! what an accomplishment for both of you!
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Post by Willow on Feb 21, 2004 7:36:23 GMT -5
I just read a post on the vaccine list I am on by a lady with a Springer that has suffered from "Springer Rage" for years, because this lady did not know how to deal with it. She finally found out about Dr. Blake, who is THE TOP homeopathic Vet in the country. He started out as a DVM and then went into homeopathy, as so many do.
Anyway, I asked for permission to post her comments here, because she said after starting treatment last year her dog is now 1000%....yes...1000% better and there are no more aggression episodes. Her dog is 14 yrs. old and is acting like a puppy again.
As I mentioned in my other post, I truly feel a combo. of NILIF and homeopathy is the way to go, because homeopathic treatment works on the dogs nervous system and calms them right down, which will help with the training too.
It also goes without saying that raw feeding, as Ann said, goes hand in hand with homeopathic treatment to get the dog healthy, so his nervous system can function properly, along with everything else.
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Post by sibemom on Feb 21, 2004 14:04:18 GMT -5
You know Loey as I get more knowledge about the vaccine issues and that post was made over at TAV about the springer, the more I understand. My dad raised springers for field work. We only did the initial puppy shots spaced out I don't even think Parvo was an issue then, and then only Rabies there after and that was a really LONG time ago. Never did we have "Springer Rage" like I hear so much of now. His stud dog was a little sassy but nothing close to being at RAGE. The more I hear the more it makes sense to me how vaccines can disrupt the natural balance.
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Post by Willow on Feb 21, 2004 16:08:23 GMT -5
What vaccine's do is create the symptoms of the disease in the dog that they are being vaccinated against! I am slowly beginning to understand how and why this happens and I am now not uncomfortable anymore with not vaccinating my dogs. In fact, knowing what I now know, and seeing how they are improving right along from being treated homeopathically, there is no way I will put drugs/chemicals into their bodies again. Thankfully they are both good for another 3 yrs. on their rabies too, so my dogs have seen the last of any vacc's, flea/tick/hw preventatives etc.
I have another article on vaccine's from a Purdue study that was done and I will send the link so whoever wants to can read it. Very interesting.
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