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Post by Dom on Oct 30, 2006 16:08:12 GMT -5
I must say that I am a little nervous. We haven't tried this trainer but she was highly recommended by a few people I know. She says she is more of a behaviorist but believes training is essential for all dogs. Her specialty is working with dogs that are aggressive. She is also involved in a non profit organization that goes to different schools and teaches kids how to socialize correctly with dogs to avoid bites. She owns German Shepards and uses them in her program. I am crossing my fingers that she can give us some insight on how to deal with Sadie's excitement issues. If this personal training session works out I am going to sign up for some of her group classes. Two more hours and we will see.
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Post by kaos on Nov 1, 2006 16:42:23 GMT -5
How did you get on?
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Post by Dom on Nov 2, 2006 9:55:10 GMT -5
It actually went really well. Thanks for asking. All of us where there (Husband, Mom and I) to listen to her. Sadie was in the backyard with Elsie at the time. She listened to us for about 15 minutes then told us to let Sadie in without a leash and for us to just watch and listen without saying anything. I kept thinking "Its a good thing she has her scratch vest on". Sadie came in with her OMG someone NEW attitude and tried to jump on her while protesting (whine/whistle/howl/licking) because the trainer wouldn't pet her. After about 5 minutes Sadie was sitting calmly in front of the trainer. It was one of those "Cesar moments". The trainer was at our home for about a hour and half. It is a lot easier to see the mistakes others make than it is to see what you are doing wrong. It was an eye opener. She gave us a lot of homework for the next 20 days. The backyard is off limits for Sadie except for potty time (supervised on a long line). All of us have to stop being so vocal when Sadie acts up. We have to "Alpha walk" (I know, buzz word ) Sadie through out the day. I think the best part of the session was that my husband and Mom finally got to hear rules from someone other than me. Whenever I told or asked them to do something they would do it for about a week then become slack again. They are really sticking to the program. The real test came Halloween. While Mom handed out candy, I was with Sadie on leash behind her. Sadie was curious but was not acting like the bucking bronco she normally acted like. She sat quietly beside me with her tail wagging. She didn't protest or try to pull. ;D I only had to correct her once. Our biggest problem was we would be too vocal and try to restrain Sadie or, in desperation, just remove her from the situation. The trainer told us Sadie was a very high drive dog and never to remove her but challenge her. By us removing her we made people become the illusive high reward treat. The trainer did say Sadie was very smart. Sadie picked up on the "calm" hand signal the trainer was teaching her after the 3rd try.That also meant we all would have to stay 2 steps ahead of Sadie or she would find new ways to get around our training. I have to admit the trainer was spot on with that advice too. The next day I put Sadie in the backyard on a 10 foot drag line. We are suppose to step on it if she charges the fence then call her back to us. The trainer placed more emphasis on the praise when she returned than the correction. Sadie was outside for about five minutes looking for a place to potty. She stopped and looked at the long line after she stepped on it a few times in her search. She then scooped the entire line up in her mouth and ran to the other side of the fence to potty. I guess she figured it would be easier for her to run around if she didn't have that troublesome line to step on. I think I need a longer line. The entire experience was very positive. The trainer was very straight forward and had no problem telling us when we were making a mistake. I was worried she would be too harsh with Sadie but that wasn't the case. She gave lighter corrections than I have before. She let Sadie work toward the target behavior on her own with a little encouragement (praise/correction). The trainer is confident that Sadie's excitement can be controlled. Now that my husband and Mom are on are all the same page, it should be an easier process.
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Post by Dom on Nov 2, 2006 13:08:24 GMT -5
I forgot to mention a few tips she gave us that I had not thought of. She wants us to start using the doggie backpack with Sadie again on long walks. We use to stick water bottles in the pack but Sadie started to refuse to move with it on. The trainer said to use dried beans because fluid weight shifts more and also makes more noise that can distract the dog. Another piece of advice she gave us was about using the long line. I tried the long line before and dumb me used it barefooted. I went to step on the line and got a nasty rope burn in the center of my foot. Other times I would step on it, when wearing shoes, and it would still have enough momentum to slide out from under my foot. The trainer does tracking and search and rescue with her dogs. She suggested tieing a knot every foot or so in the long line to give you better control during the training process. I am sure many (if not all ) of you knew those already but I thought I would toss it out there for those that are interested. I found it useful.
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Post by kaos on Nov 2, 2006 16:01:38 GMT -5
'It is a lot easier to see the mistakes others make than it is to see what you are doing wrong.'
I think that is soooo true. A neutral third party observer can make a big difference.
Was the backpack just to wear Sadie out more on walks?
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Post by Nicole on Nov 2, 2006 20:14:53 GMT -5
The knots on the line is a great idea!! If you are looking for ways to tire the dog, bike riding is a great way. I have been biking with Sunny almost since I got him. He is now a pro to the point that if we are going through a skinny area I say “squish” and he gets close the bike. He knows left, right, slow, stop etc. It combines both physical and mental exercise because I give various commands as we are riding. I hold a leash which works for us but they also have special bungee type cords that attach to the bike that you can use. I just need to have total control because of our environment (people cars etc.) so I like holding the leash. I live in a semi urban area with all concrete so we don’t go too far as the pounding is not good but even a few blocks tires him so much more than a walk and it is a lot of fun. I wish I had dirt trails to bike on. And just like a dog will only jump in a rose bush once, they will only run in front a bike tire once. I did have one episode when I biked with Reign where he went on one side of a telephone pole and I went on the other side. Of course I went flying off the bike and Reign just stood there and looked at me like I was stupid!! I am glad things are going so well with the trainer!!
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Post by Dom on Nov 3, 2006 9:18:04 GMT -5
I did have one episode when I biked with Reign where he went on one side of a telephone pole and I went on the other side. Of course I went flying off the bike and Reign just stood there and looked at me like I was stupid!! I am sorry Nicole but I just had to laugh. ;D It reminds me of the ONE time I tried bike riding with my Chow. He saw a cat and literally skidding my bike sideways. My bike tires were off the ground a good foot at a time then I went flying into the pavement. Needless to say the mile back I was walking (more like limping) both my bike and my Chow home. I am scared to try the bike with Sadie yet. My Chow only weighed 60 lbs and Sadie is more than 80 lbs. It will be a good idea for later though! Maybe I can talk my husband into getting me one for Christmas. Was the backpack just to wear Sadie out more on walks? The trainer wanted us to try the backpack for focus. She said it would tire Sadie out more but the main goal is for Sadie to focus on doing a job and me instead of reacting to her surroundings. She told us to put 4 lbs of beans in the pack for the first two weeks then 6 lbs in there for the next two. After that mix the weight up so it is different every few walks. The trainer wants us to do many short walks for now. It is kinda like when someone comes over and your dog is excited to see them but after 10 minutes the dog calms down and essentially doesn't pay attention to the people. The "teaching the dog to calm down" session is basically over after the first 10 minutes. BUT let the company leave for 30 minutes and come back and the ritual starts over. So by making many short walks Sadie is focusing more than if she had one long walk because of having to gain mental control of herself each time a session starts. I hope that made sense. We finally got the size back she needed and tried it on her last night. We added the challenge of walking Elsie with her. Normally Sadie is so worried about what Elsie is doing that she will tug and try to walk backward just so she can see her. This time Sadie looked back at her twice but after that was glued to my side. We even had someones dog run down their driveway at us barking. Sadie ignored the dog. We thought we were walking her correctly before but I guess we weren't. Before it was "ok" if she sniffed or looked around as long as she stayed right beside us and didn't pull. That was not the kind of walk the trainer wants us to do with her for now. Imagine the Army and Sadie was in boot camp. The soldiers in the army are not allowed to look around or pause when in formation. They march together. That is how the trainer wants us to walk Sadie. Obviously this isn't for the entire walk but it is for most of it. A ten minute walk with her concentrating on me changing my walking speed wears her out more than a hour walk before. After every short walk she passes out as soon as we get home. I have never seen her sleep so much. ;D I always said I would never use a choke chain but that is what we are using now. I guess I was more afraid of not using it properly than the idea of it. I feel more confident using one after the trainer showed me how. In 20 days the trainer is going to visit us to see our progress. I wonder if she will wear her scratch jacket.
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Post by Dom on Nov 3, 2006 9:25:57 GMT -5
I am glad things are going so well with the trainer!! Thank you! I am glad everything is going smoothly too. I like this trainer. Better yet, my husband and my Mom like her. Most of the exercises are centered around Sadie gaining self control and looking to us during new or strange situations. My husband was up at 6 am this morning walking Sadie. I got a two for one deal from the trainer. My husband and my dog listening after one hour and a half session!?? What a deal!
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Post by masha on Nov 4, 2006 13:15:33 GMT -5
I am curious - exactly what did the trainer suggest you do in the situation where your dog is excitedly greeting? It sounds like she was getting you to give the dog a signal to do something specific, but to give this command in a low-powered kind of way to avoid exciting her further?
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Post by willow on Nov 5, 2006 8:33:16 GMT -5
Your trainer sounds very good and she sounds like she took lessons from CM. ;D She is implementing what I have seen him do...the back pack with weights, walking dogs together etc.
As for the "choke" chain, and in defense of it, it is still my training collar of choice. I prefer to call it a "slip" collar though, because the only time it will actually choke the dog is if it isn't used properly and the dog is allowed to pull against it, or when used in the extremely cruel way of hanging a dog for aggression. But if you think about it...when a dog pulls against any collar it will gag/choke and dogs have been hung with flat collars too! It goes back to "It's not the tool...it's how it's used". That is, except for the Head Halters, because as soon as they are put on they apply pressure behind the head and on the nose, so the dog is getting a correction even when the leash is loose.
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Post by Dom on Nov 6, 2006 9:32:00 GMT -5
I am curious - exactly what did the trainer suggest you do in the situation where your dog is excitedly greeting? She actually showed us two ways to control Sadie with company. The first is to greet people at the door with Sadie on my left side while on a P-ring (her name for a choke chain) and leash. We are to keep her head in the same position as we do for her Alpha walks. Her head is high so if she tries to move toward our company, the collar will give her a reminder that she isn't allowed to move until calm. We also keep her in a sit and the side of her body touching my leg. One of the things we were doing wrong was we were getting in a tug of war with Sadie and constantly saying No, Sit, No.etc. We now say nothing except for a occasional "EH" or soft/slow "Good Girl" if she is behaving. It works better than us getting into a battle to control her. She learns to control herself with us setting her up to succeed. The attitude the trainer wanted us to have during the sessions reminds me a lot of what sibemom said once. I am paraphrasing.."Why do my dogs do it? Because I said so!" The hand signal is used when we come home. Since she will be off leash when we come in, she will be facing us. If she comes close enough to try and jump or lick us we move forward to push her out of our space. Once she sits (a good arm length away) then we say EH when her butt leaves the ground and use the signal to tell her what behavior we want. After she listens and calms down then we pet her chest, "Good Girl" and walk away. Eventually the trainer wants us to get company to use the signal but not until a month of working with her. Sorry if I am not explaining it right. It is easier to see it in action. Having the trainer show us has been a great help. I know the basics of a lot of training methods but I was having a hard time implementing them. After I looked back at what I typed, I realized I may have given the impression we are being heavy handed with the corrections and our attitude. That couldn't be further from the truth. The trainer's way actually uses very light corrections (if any). If you would have seen me holding on to Sadie for dear life and her tugging at the end of a prong or martingale you would say that was a lot more harsh. I was trying to force her to calm down instead of showing her an alternative and letting her do it on her own. My frustration added to the problem. I started to feel silly sharing all the mistakes I had made with you all. I came to my senses and realized that everyone here is here for a reason. To help each other. So if anyone can find anything useful in my muddled posts it is worth it to put my inexperience in writing.
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Post by Dom on Nov 6, 2006 10:02:15 GMT -5
Your trainer sounds very good and she sounds like she took lessons from CM. ;D She is implementing what I have seen him do...the back pack with weights, walking dogs together etc. Yes a lot of what she said reminded me of Cesar. I kept waiting for her to say "be calm assertive". I feel she goes a step further though. She doesn't want us to walk Sadie with Elsie until after we walk Sadie alone first. She actually said she would prefer for Elsie not to be around during the first month of sessions. Elsie is an added distraction that Sadie doesn't need during this phase of training. Also she believes training is essential for a dog and their owner. Having a "balanced" dog is not the same as having a dog that can act appropriately in society. Another difference is she didn't want us to take Sadie on a hour walk to tire her out physically. She wanted us to do six 10 minutes walks to work her mentally. She explained that the reality was we couldn't run Sadie for a hour before someone showed up at our door every time. The only thing we could consistently control was Sadie's way of handling company through training. We show Sadie what we expect of her through commands and she is expected to do it. I know there are tons of training methods out there. Many trainers adopt views and techniques from other trainers. Hey if it works it works right. I am very happy with this trainer. Her techniques and tools are working with Sadie. Your right Willow. The choke chain is not the evil complicated training tool I thought it was. For some reason I always connected "yank and crank" with choke chains in my head. 8-)Believe me, if the trainer would have tried that then she would have been escorted off our property. If you were to ask my husband a month ago if I would ever use a choke chain/P-ring/slip collar he would have said No way. He has tried to get me to use one before and failed. I am glad this trainer broke through my ignorance and showed me how to use it correctly. Come to think of it, I guess the trainer didn't just train my Mom and husband...she was training me too!
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Post by sibemom on Nov 6, 2006 20:01:18 GMT -5
SOUNDS GREAT DOM I am so glad the trainer is working for not only Sadie but the humans in your family She does sound like she has a common sense approach and that is the key. Using your head about situations and using the correct tools, and being willing to go a step beyond to help you and your dog. This really sounds wonderful for you CONGRATS ;D
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Post by masha on Nov 7, 2006 14:07:45 GMT -5
Thanks - your explanations are quite clear!
I've gone through a lot with my dog too and many things are much better, but one thing we are battling with is the wild greeting when we come home, and when people visit.
I guess you have to practice the "calm sit down" with your dog away from the "greeting" situation, so she knows very well what you want of her before you expect her to do it when wildly excited?
I'm very interested in this bit because although I have got Ana to sit down to get me to pay attention to her, I think I was then doing the chest rub thing too quickly because she will then get up and go wild again. I need to let her sit for couple of moments longer , and say "eh" quietly but firmly if she tries to get up - and then pet her. Does that sound right?
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Post by Dom on Nov 8, 2006 11:03:53 GMT -5
We have been practicing the signal throughout the the day. After we have been home for awhile we take turns going out of the house and coming back in. We probably do it around five times a day between my husband and I. It only takes about 15 minutes total so it isn't a strain. Sadie isn't as excited when we leave the house for a few minutes compared to when I get home so it doesn't take her long to calm down. In the beginning we would have to time the signal to the moment she started to calm then progressively make her wait longer for the praise. Now we are starting to correct with a EH or a tap on her side if she doesn't calm when we use it. If we pet her too soon she returns to high excitement. Most of the time we say good girl and when we are done with the session we pet her chest then walk away. This is going to sound odd because I am not sure how to put it in words like the trainer did. ???We aren't praising Sadie for being calm around people. We are praising her for doing the command. Not being rude around people is expected not praised. Yes her being calm and remaining seated is the command but we take the emotional aspect out of it. That also makes it easier on us because it is like training a dog to sit. Repeat repeat repeat. We don't get embarrassed, upset, or frustrated when a dog doesn't sit the first few times. We just decide they need more repetitions to get it right. So don't go through those emotions around company when teaching "calm". All those emotions just confuse the process and the dog. I really know how you feel when you say it is a battle. Sometimes if feels like Sadie's excitement is an entity in itself. We have had an easy time training commands but with this problem we hit a brick wall. Consistency is the key. At first I wondered if I could find the time for a hour of training everyday. Especially on the weekday. It isn't the daunting task I thought it was when we broke it down into 2 min and 10 min sessions. Trust me, they add up. So far it is working with Sadie. I am not sure how well it will work with Ana. I am sure others here can offer advice that may work better for you.
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