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Post by Am on Mar 24, 2006 23:01:14 GMT -5
Hi all, For the last year, I've been looking for a professional trainer to help me work with my dog's dog-dog aggression issues. In all that time, I haven't found any trainers who weren't "purely positive" type clicker trainers. (Except for one Schutzhund trainer who works in a different city - but he told me that my dog was probably be "too old" to be helped at all. At least he was honest about it!). Anyway, I've just found a promising looking trainer who works in a nearby city, and have booked an introductory assessment by email. His website looks OK to me - can anyone else see any "warning signs" here? Are there any question you'd suggest I ask, before I put down my hard earned cash? www.paulhutton.co.nz/cbc/index.html
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Post by Aussienot on Mar 25, 2006 1:03:31 GMT -5
What I failed to see on the site was any positive statement about how he trains, and his philosophy of dog behaviour. I know a lot about what he doesn't do, but absolutely nothing about what he does. Except "voiceless control" of uncontrollable dogs.
I saw a litany of nos: no eye contact, no e-collars, no bah, no hard voices. A few of the dogs appear to be on check chains, but there was no information about what kind of collar IS recommended or whether or not corrections come into it.
His categorical dismissal of food as "bribery" worries me. Positive reinforcement is so much more than bribery and food is such useful motivator that I would be wary of a trainer that refuses to even consider it or fails to understand its usefulness when training in drive.
Since you have a limited number of choices it's worth checking out. There is claimed to be a money back guarantee, so I suppose you have nothing to lose by talking to the guy and seeing his training methods first hand. You know enough to spot the real thing from the con man.
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Post by Nicole on Mar 25, 2006 9:03:44 GMT -5
I didn't read the whole site but what made me cringe a bit was that he kept repeating that guide dogs, police dogs, gun dogs etc aren't trained with food....so that is the justification. He is so wrong. They certainly are if that is the motivator in the teaching phase. He is overlooking the teaching phase or he just doesn't understand that. Maybe gun dogs aren't but their motivator is work. Police dogs are taught with many motivators, food, prey etc. as are guide dogs. He makes alot of these types of blanket misleading type statements.
In reading the frequently asked questions, I came to not like him. I know that is vague but just a feeling in the gut. He basically poo poos NILIF. Says that going out doors first, eating first etc. is nonsense.
I agree with Aussie. He spends a lot of time telling you what he doesn't do and what is bad about other methods without explaining why except that guide dogs, gun dogs and police dogs aren't trained that way which he is wrong about....and yet he never tells you his method other than that he is big on non verbal cues and that he commands respect. How?
Like Aussie said, I would go for the assessment just to check him out. If you decide to use him pay as you go rather than all at once if that is possible.
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Post by willow on Mar 25, 2006 10:09:38 GMT -5
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Post by Am on Mar 25, 2006 15:38:09 GMT -5
Thanks Aussie and Nicole. I actually emailed him and asked him what his method was, and got a very vague reply. Seems strange that he won't share it in more detail (makes me think that he perhaps uses collar corrections, and doesn't want to scare potential customers away by admitting it?) Anyway, I'll go along to the introductory session and make sure I come away with a little more information about how he actually does train. I figure that if he poo-poos food "bribery", then he can't be purely positive - that has to be a step in the right direction, right? But then again, I don't want to go to the other extreme and end up with a pure Koehler style trainer. Hopefully this guy is somewhere in the middle, despite his website. Willow, I would check out Cesar Millan - except that he lives 7000 miles away from me! Or were you suggesting that I study a video or book of his? If so, can you say which one? I've heard conflicting things about him, but am always up for reading more good dog books.
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Post by willow on Mar 25, 2006 18:36:21 GMT -5
I read some of the FAQ's...mostly about puppy schools/classes/socialization etc. and I have to say that I agree with this guy about that anyway. I will read some more. I will also say that when I began training many years ago, we did not use food and we did not use electronic collars, and the dogs back then were much more reliably trained than most of the dogs you see now days who were trained with treats etc., so I tend to agree with this guy about that too. However; I also realize that a lot of police dog trainer's today do use "rewards" other than just praise in their training. Usually a toy and/or food reward, but just like it has always been, there are good trainer's and bad trainer's and I believe a good trainer who understands dogs in general, but particularly the dog he is working with, does not need food or toy rewards to motivate them. I have said it before, but it is my experience that dogs who work for treats/toy rewards are not working for you. I also question the practice of "building drive" by exciting the dog to preform. If you have to excite the dog to preform, perhaps he is bored with what he is doing and needs a break. An excited dog is not learning. He is reacting to outside stimuli and that is when negative responses come forward. To learn, a dog must remain calm and focused. We also never heard of NILIF and didn't pay much attention to who ate first etc. ;D, and still had well trained dogs, but...we also treated our dogs like dogs. They did not come near us when we ate, we did not feed them at the table. They did not get up on the couch and snuggle with us...I got down on the floor with them, and still do. They also did not sleep in bed with us or on our bed by themselves. I just don't happen to believe you can have a well trained dog that thinks he is on your level, and allowing them up on furniture and beds does exactly that, even if they will get off when you tell them to without biting you! ;D Saying that, I will read more about this guy, but so far he sounds like my kind of trainer, who has a lot of dog saavy and common sense. Also, I am sure the reason he doesn't tell all his training methods etc. on his site is because he wants you to enroll in his training program first. That just seems logical to me too. Now. As to Caeser Milan. That is a drawback with most of us. Distance. ;D What are and from whom did you hear negative things about him?
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Post by willow on Mar 25, 2006 21:10:40 GMT -5
I have read everything on his website and I would not hesitate to schedule a consultation with him. My saying that might make you run in the other direction, ;D, but I liked what he had to say and agreed with about 98% of what he said. With the other 2%, I can't say I disagreed with him. "Unsure" is more accurate because I don't have the experience with the subject that is necessary to fully understand it and to know if he is correct or not....if that makes sense. If there was some one around here like him I would be first in line to sign up for his course(s), just to learn all I could from him.
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Post by Am on Mar 25, 2006 23:49:28 GMT -5
Hi again Willow, thanks for your well thought out post. I will let all you guys know my impressions when I go for the intro session - I've left a message with him and he'll be getting back to me about dates etc. What are and from whom did you hear negative things about him? I have never talked to anyone who has trained with Cesar - only talked to people who have seen his TV show and DVDs. So please remember that this is just third hand rumour! I've been told that Mr Millan uses prong and e-collars but doesn't tell the audience what he's doing so as not to lose ratings (though you can sometimes spot the collar on the dog and/or the remote in his hand), and that he invariably rushes or floods dogs with fear issues through training instead of taking the time to desensitise them. I've also heard that he has a habit of taking 20 or 30 offleash dogs for strolls round his neighbourhood, and has been banned from some local parks because of "incidents" with other dogs. Like I say, since I haven't seen the show, I don't know how much is true and how much is just sour grapes from other trainers - I'm just telling you cos you asked. Hopefully they'll show his TV show over here sometime, so I can watch it and make my own mind up about what I think of him. ;D
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Post by willow on Mar 26, 2006 9:23:01 GMT -5
Naturally, we would have to be with any trainer to see a rehabilitation procedure from start to finish before we could draw an informed conclusion, and with a t.v. show, they can't possibly show the whole training procedure start to finish. Caeser also stresses all the time that what he did is just the beginning and the owner's have to follow up and keep re-inforcing what he did. I am actually surprised they show as many negative reactions from the dogs as they do and incidences where Caeser has actually been bitten. When I first saw that, my thought was, "This guy is nuts! He has more guts than brains." But after watching many programs I do feel that in this day and age of pp trainer's and people treating their dogs better than they do their kids, as in the instance where the parents let their dog bite/terrorize their son and told the son to move off the couch etc., I am glad to see a trainer who not only has the guts to work with these spoiled, aggressive dogs, but who takes on these ridiculously stupid owner's and not put an e-collar on them! ;D And speaking of e-collars, pinch collars etc. I am not totally against them and I do feel they have their place in the training of some dogs. I just feel that a lot of trainer's and more owner's than we realize today are looking for a "quick fix" and I agree with this Paul that when they are mis-used or over used, they actually ruin the dog. It makes me physically ill when I see e-collars in the hands of trainer's/owner's who have no business using them on a dog. As far as Caeser using e-collars and pinch collar's. On one show I saw, he did show a pinch collar and explain how it is used, and I have seen him work a few dogs using the pinch collar, because that is the collar the owner's were using on the dog and at least in one instance with a very muscular, strong dog he did say the pinch gave more control. The other "special" collar he puts on some red zone dogs may be an e-collar, because the dogs did yelp with the first correction, and I tried very hard to see a remote and I did not see one. What he usually uses though, is a nylon or leather all in one slip collar and leash. They also do show Ceaser running with his gang of dogs off leash, but to me it looks like a remote area, and they also show him on a skate board, on a city street with leashes on the dogs, and of course I don't know if what some people said about him walking his dogs unleashed in his neighborhood is true or not. I also did see on segment in a dog park where another person's dog started trouble with one of his dogs, but he broke it up right away. He said he goes to dog parks to educate people on how to use dog parks. He says the dogs should be exercised before they get to the park, because there is less chance then of dogs causing problems and he also said the biggest problem again, is the owner's who just turn their dogs loose and don't watch them. In any event, from watching him I am impressed, as I said, with his "no nonsense, treat dogs as dogs" attitude, and I do know from using it, that his method of pointing at the dog, saying "Shhhhhhhhhht" and touching them to distract them, will stop them dead in their tracks better than anything else I have ever used. ;D And of course, we know no human does every thing right every time. Not you, not I and not Cesar!
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Post by Nicole on Mar 26, 2006 9:24:58 GMT -5
I just read something about that on Leerberg on Cesar Milan. Evidently, he stimmed a dog too high and the dog bit him on the show. He had the remote hidden in his hand. Someone actually wrote to the show and got a response from the producers explaining that they don’t want to be targeted by “groups” etc and that yes he was using a remote. The problem with this is that Average Joe the dog owner will think he can have such well behaved dog when in fact it is so well behaved because it is being stimmed. Otherwise though I hear great things about him. Loey, are you are a closet Koehler girl!! Just kidding. ;D ;D I understand what you are saying. But that is what was missing to me. Talk of rewards. I don’t agree with bribes either at all but I do believe in a balance of rewards and corrections. Teach a dog what you want and then tell him when he does right and when he does wrong. I guess what turned me off a bit was that this trainer acted like he has this secret method. There are only so many methods and not one is unique. You have PP-- ignore the bad, bribe and reward the good and the other extreme, ignore the good, correct the bad and then everything in between. So I think he doesn’t say what his method is because it is not HIS method. It is a method that is somewhere in this spectrum. He looks like he is in his 70's in the picture so maybe he is at the Khoeler end of the spectrum. I also agree with drive building very much actually. It isn’t an excitement so much but an eagerness, a willingness, a focus because you are using the natural instincts of a dog. As I see it to teach OB you can either use aversion training...correct him for not complying or until he complies....or use something that he is interested in so that he learns to do what you want. I think it is one or the other. Without rewards, balls etc you are at the Koehler extreme. That is how I see it anyway. I have never trained that way so don’t know if that is necessarily a bad thing. They say you get a dull dog. But for dog aggression, this may be the way to go. I know that Richard had great success with training Rocky to ignore other dogs with a trainer who used aversion training. There is a post on this somewhere here but it is in someone elses thread so probably hard to find. Now Rocky sits behind Richard when there is another dog and he will not aggress. So I am very curious as to what his methods are and you better report back.
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Post by willow on Mar 26, 2006 10:15:40 GMT -5
Even Koehler is not all bad. And yes, I am also guilty of getting close to 70 years old too, so therefore I guess I am also guilty of having trained with out encouraging the dogs natural instinct of "prey drive", except in the case of retriever field training. You could say by their retrieving a bird it is a reward for doing what comes naturally for them, running down prey, but of course you have to curb the natural instinct to kill the bird, not encourage it. I do believe in "reward", but praise. Food may be o.k. if not over done, but I prefer not to have to worry about always having food with me! And I do feel that exciting a dog with a toy reward is just that. Exciting the dog. I have ob trained both ways, and I know I am "old" and "not keeping up", with modern methods of training, but the dogs I trained by just using praise were better trained dogs, but maybe that is just because I was younger and spent more time training them than I do now. What is " drive"? To go after "prey", right? That is why they call it "prey drive". If you are into fox hunting or some other hunting of prey, the "reward" is that the dogs get to maul/kill the fox or other animal either before or after it is dead, so I guess giving a toy reward is better than letting a dog maul a real animal, but personally, I never saw the use in it, but that is just me and it doesn't mean that I am right. I just prefer not to encourage my dogs natural instinct of running down and killing other animals. Maybe if you live in an area that does not have wild animals and you don't care for cats it's fine, but again. It's not, and never has been my idea of a "reward". That's like letting a police dog chew on the perpetrator after he is caught and I have heard the handler's say exactly that...it is the dogs "reward" for catching them. Personally, if some one has just committed a crime against society, I would do more to them than give them a dog bite, but I feel in encouraging a dog by giving him this type of "reward" is harmful for the dog and probably for some innocent people along the way. To sum it up: To each his own and what ever works for you, I guess. ;D
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Post by willow on Mar 26, 2006 10:20:58 GMT -5
I feel I should explain a comment I made in an earlier post about trainer's using an e-collar because they want a "quick fix".
In the case of aggression, or some other dangerous behavior you need and want a "quick fix" to stop the behavior now, but I feel a lot of trainer's over use them in obedience and other forms of training.
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Post by Nicole on Mar 26, 2006 10:43:43 GMT -5
Praise is using the dogs drive also. Pack drive. If a dog has pack drive then praise is as exciting to that dog as a ball is to a high prey drive dog. But some dogs could care less about it. So you use what drives the dog has. I use praise all the time. Sunny has an extreme pack drive. A good boy to him is as exciting as a piece of steak. I rarely use food because I feel it can’t be hidden well and ends up being a bribe. I also use play and I don’t think that throwing a ball after a dog has sat or heeled or whatever incites it to kill cats any more than it may already be so inclined to do so. The hole in that theory is that giving toys and playing ball would do the same and we all play with toys and balls with our dogs all the time. Sunny likes cats BTW and he has an extreme prey drive. And it really isn’t a distracting excitement. You are using the ball as a reward. The dog doesn’t know it is coming otherwise it would be a bribe. But it reinforces the learning because it is desirable to the dog just as praise is to some dogs and food is to others. If you praise some dogs they go bonkers. The response to a ball or toy looks like it is a distracting excitement because the dog is actually moving and running after it. Maybe it is excitement. That doesn’t bother me. ;D
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Post by willow on Mar 26, 2006 10:54:56 GMT -5
I think the problem we are having is the communication gap between an older and a younger person! After I do some training, at the end of the session, I will throw a ball etc. for the dog, if they are into that sort of thing, or let them off leash and just run around with them, if they are not into chasing balls etc., but I don't do it after each time they execute a behavior I want as a "reward". Does that make sense? I use it as a "relax from the serious training, fun time thing", but never thought about it as building prey drive. Interesting.
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Post by Nicole on Mar 26, 2006 11:03:18 GMT -5
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