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Aug 6, 2006 2:47:35 GMT -5
Post by kaos on Aug 6, 2006 2:47:35 GMT -5
Aussienot asked me to post a bit of an introduction so here we go... I live in NZ, and currently have two absolutely fabulous dogs. Kofi is a black lab x GSD who I have had since he was a puppy (now 3), and Kaos is heeler x BC ish who we adopted as a 9mnth old from the SPCA (now 2). I do some obedience with Kaos, and help out as a trainer at a local dog club. Will try to figure out how to post a photo. As some of you have already discovered I have moved towards mainly positive reinforcement training of late. Haven't come here to convert you all so don't panic, but it becomes a little tedious posting only on positive boards and I like to hear experience and debate from the other side of the fence too I chose to use positive methods on my dogs because they work well for me, and not because I believe that anybody who trains any other way is evil. I think it can be very destructive to only hear input from those we automatically agree with - healthy to be challenged... Will try to figure out how to post a photo of my dogs sometime soon.
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Aug 6, 2006 8:07:49 GMT -5
Post by sibemom on Aug 6, 2006 8:07:49 GMT -5
Welcome and good to read about you and your dogs Yes healthy discussion about training methods is good OH and don't worry most of us could never be converted but it is good to talk about how your methods work and how others choose different. We are a good group of people and for the most part respectful So welcome aboard looking forward to your pictures
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Aug 6, 2006 8:19:47 GMT -5
Post by Nicole on Aug 6, 2006 8:19:47 GMT -5
I always wondered why when there are so many PP sites that PP people came to our board. Now I get it. But you will notice that we have debated every argument over and over and frankly I think we are just tired now and so we just don’t bother or we say yeah Ok whatever... so I am not sure how much stimulation you are going to get here. Although Willow and Ann still seem to have the energy...and Dom too. ;D ;D We are not anti PP. Heck I spend 99.9 % of the time positively reinforcing my dog. But a correction is delivered when and if it is necessary under circumstances that require it. What becomes annoying to me is people who come here with an obsession (not referring to you) and they go on and on and on and will not accept another point of view. They cannot understand that head halters are intended for horses and that different dogs need different training styles. I would accept that some dogs never need a correction...a PP person will not accept that many dogs do. That is the difference. We have been on this board for a number of years and there has not been one of these obsessed pp people who could tell us how they would stop an aggressive dog... a dog that bites people, a dog that bites kids, a dog that bites dogs, a dog that bites its owner...other than throwing a can of pennies and saying praise and click when he doesn’t bite. They would rather put the dog down than issue a correction. That is an insane mentality to me. This is the one open question so if you are up to the challenge I am listening!! ;D And welcome to the board....
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Aug 6, 2006 8:22:12 GMT -5
Post by Richard on Aug 6, 2006 8:22:12 GMT -5
Hi and Welcome aboard Kaos.
If you have a digital camera and (obviously) you have access to the internet, click on the photobucket online photo storage link above. It's free to sign up and you can upload your pictures there and post them here.
If you need help in posting pictures here, let me know.
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Aug 6, 2006 16:03:28 GMT -5
Post by kaos on Aug 6, 2006 16:03:28 GMT -5
Nicole, yes I do see debates here, but I also see much misinformation being posted about positive methods so I think there are times when another viewpoint is necessary. Of course I am not trying to respresent any one training regime, just my own personal views, and you will note that I am not claiming to be 'purely' positive, and would not rule out the possibility of using punishment in certain contexts with certain dogs.
As far as positive methods working for dogs that bite, there have been many good books written on the subject by renowned, experienced and respected trainers, detailing their methods and successes. I am not an expert on working with dogs that bite, and I think that individual cases should be taken on their own merit. No, I certainly wouldn't automatically suggest that a dog that has bitten a person should be put down automatically.
You talk about people who 'will not accept another's point of view', but are you not just as guilty of this as the people you are complaining about? Have a look at your blanket statement about headcollars for example. I am not trying to be rude, but just pointing out that opinions cut both ways.
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Aug 6, 2006 16:17:09 GMT -5
Post by Am on Aug 6, 2006 16:17:09 GMT -5
Hi Kaos, nice to meet another kiwi on the board. I agree that (from what I have seen) positive methods work well for many dogs. But there are many other dogs that do need corrections as well as reinforcement, and that don't train well under a "purely positive" methodology. I know because I own one! As for headcollars, I too am distressed that they are so often marketed as "humane" alternatives to pinch collars. Perhaps they are for some dogs, but many dogs I know absolutely hate headcollars. I have seen so many dogs grind their faces into the ground to get the headcollars off, or walk round with their tail right between their legs the entire time they are wearing the headcollar, or just completely shut down and refuse to move while wearing a headcollar. Perhaps headcollars work fine for some dogs, but they are not a "humane alternative" for all dogs. My dog is much happier and works much better in a pinch collar.
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Aug 6, 2006 16:31:32 GMT -5
Post by Nicole on Aug 6, 2006 16:31:32 GMT -5
Nicole, yes I do see debates here, but I also see much misinformation being posted about positive methods so I think there are times when another viewpoint is necessary. Of course I am not trying to represent any one training regime, just my own personal views, and you will note that I am not claiming to be 'purely' positive, and would not rule out the possibility of using punishment in certain contexts with certain dogs. Like I said..yeah OK, whatever... As far as positive methods working for dogs that bite, there have been many good books written on the subject by renowned, experienced and respected trainers, detailing their methods and successes. I am not an expert on working with dogs that bite, and I think that individual cases should be taken on their own merit. No, I certainly wouldn't automatically suggest that a dog that has bitten a person should be put down automatically. I think I made my point. You talk about people who 'will not accept another's point of view', but are you not just as guilty of this as the people you are complaining about? Have a look at your blanket statement about headcollars for example. A factual statement is not a point of view. What I said is factual. Are you disputing that a head halter was designed for a horse with a long really really strong neck that won't snap if extended. I am not trying to be rude, but just pointing out that opinions cut both ways. I don't think you need to try to be rude. And BTW positive punishment is taking something away or not giving something and negative punishment is doing something to the dog, correction etc. You have it backwards.
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Aug 6, 2006 18:36:15 GMT -5
Post by kaos on Aug 6, 2006 18:36:15 GMT -5
no - sorry I think you have it backwards: Something Good can end or be taken away, so behavior decreases = Negative Punishment ( Something Bad can start or be presented, so behavior decreases = Positive Punishment (P+)
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Aug 6, 2006 19:03:57 GMT -5
Post by kaos on Aug 6, 2006 19:03:57 GMT -5
Hi Am - thanks for posting, and would be interested in hearing more about your own personal experience with positive and other methods for your particular dog.
I appreciate your opinion on head collars, and I certainly agree that they are no more a 'cure all' for all dogs than a pinch collar or any other piece of training apparatus, but I think if you are going to use or recommed one it is good to be familiar with and understand the arguments both for and against before making up your own mind - which is one reason why I would come to a site like this, doesn't mean I have to agree but hopefully will have a more informed opinion. I think some of the concerns I have read about are valid, however, I still do believe they are useful in some situations. Like any training aid they can be mis-used.
Nicole, not wanting to get into a debate about methods of treating a biting dog doesn't prove anything at all. It is not my area of expertise or particular interest, and if you genuinely have an interest in understanding possible methods there are good specialist books available that would do a far better job of explaining than I could, and speak from personal experience. If I were to comment it would be from theory, or observation of other people's work and not first hand experience so I don't feel it would be very valid or persuasive. Many positive trainers do specialise in agression.
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Aug 6, 2006 19:21:07 GMT -5
Post by Nicole on Aug 6, 2006 19:21:07 GMT -5
no - sorry I think you have it backwards: Something Good can end or be taken away, so behavior decreases = Negative Punishment ( Something Bad can start or be presented, so behavior decreases = Positive Punishment (P+) No you have it backwards. ;D That may be your interpretation but in dog training positive punishment is not giving the dog a treat. Geesh...read a PP site and you will see that I am right.
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Aug 6, 2006 19:25:16 GMT -5
Post by Nicole on Aug 6, 2006 19:25:16 GMT -5
They like to call it positive punishment because... well.... it is positive... You don't think that a pp would deliver NEGATIVE punishment do you. Negative is not in their vocabulary. Seriously, I never heard the word positive punishment before PP. It was invented to sound positive.
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Aug 6, 2006 19:32:52 GMT -5
Post by Am on Aug 6, 2006 19:32:52 GMT -5
Nicole - I'm sorry - but you have it backwards. I get them all confused sometimes too, they are really muddling. Positive reinforcement - give the dog something to increase the chance it will exhibit that behaviour again (e.g give a treat). Positive punishment - give the dog something to decrease the chance it will exhibit that behaviour again (e.g give a correction) Negative reinforcement - take away something to increase the chance it will exhibit that behaviour again (e.g take away the pressure from a check chain). Negative punishment - take away something to decrease the chance it will exhibit that behaviour again (e.g take away a treat) So called "purely positive" trainers use positive reinforcement and negative punishment only. They just call themselves "purely positive" cos it's good marketing. "Positive" sounds nice and kind and fluffy. www.wagntrain.com/OC/
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Aug 6, 2006 19:41:17 GMT -5
Post by Nicole on Aug 6, 2006 19:41:17 GMT -5
I am wrong. i just went to look it up because I swore they used the term positive....but I am wrong and you both are right. My psychology 101 prof would be ashamed of me.
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Aug 6, 2006 19:53:01 GMT -5
Post by Am on Aug 6, 2006 19:53:01 GMT -5
Hi Am - thanks for posting, and would be interested in hearing more about your own personal experience with positive and other methods for your particular dog. In summary - adopted as a 5 year old, completely untrained, intensely dog aggressive entire male stafford. Took him to three clicker classes. The trainers told me he was fearful of other dogs, and encouraged him to use timeouts for bad behaviour, coupled with treats for good behaviour. Result? He learned he could instigate fights and dominate other dogs without any kind of appreciable correction. Not suprisingly, his (already bad) behaviour deteriorated markedly. He was unreliable around other dogs, even on leash. Even NILIF didn't help that much. So, bought an e-collar and prong collar and started training in prey drive (mostly prey drive rewards, with occassional corrections). Result? He got his CGC this year, and we're currently attending a (well organised, well controlled) offleash obedience class. I can walk him offleash in the park or on the beach, and if we see other dogs coming - I just call him back to me. And he happily obeys. The mix of NILIF, prey motivation, & physical corrections has reached him where clicker training and treat rewards just couldn't. They can be useful in some situations. But my question isn't: "is this tool useful?" My question is: "is this the best tool for the situation?" In most cases, with a halti, I would say no. All a halti does is physically control a dog by making his nose uncomfortable. The dog has no choice but to obey, since the handler has him by the face. That's not training! Training teaches a dog to obey even if the handler does not physically have control of the dog. With a halti, as soon as you take the halti off, you lose the physical control and lose the obedience. And because of the unfortunate design of the halti, it's blindingly obvious to the dog whether or not he is wearing it. IMO, in most cases, an owner would be better off working their dog on a regular training collar, working on keeping their dog's focus around distractions (through motivational rewards) & correcting his bad behaviour (through positive/negative punishment). That way, their dog understands what they want and is motivated to obey even when he is not wearing a special collar on his face. JMO, of course. ETA: Nicole, don't worry, I confuse them all the time too!
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Aug 6, 2006 20:18:40 GMT -5
Post by Laura on Aug 6, 2006 20:18:40 GMT -5
Nicki, I used to get them confused too, thanks for keeping it civil, both of you . Now, everyone to the debate section if you want to beat this around some more , we've hijacked Kaos' intro badly enough! And Kaos, welcome to the board, stick around, we're a crusty lot, but there's no BS here and we do manage to play well in the sandbox with others ;D.
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