BeTrue
Trained
Banned
Posts: 217
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Post by BeTrue on Feb 7, 2005 14:11:44 GMT -5
You know what makes me upset? People who are so STUCK on using one way of training. I don't think I've been able to find one trainer around my area that treats a dog like an individual. As a lot of you know, I'm still searching to find a trainer to work under, but they're all so...what should I compare them to? Democrat vs. Republican minded...lol. For example, there was an out of control dog at a clicker class who was behaving extremely out of line. Now, I'm sure certain clicker trainers could have corrected this dog. I've seen Pryor work her magic on 'wild dogs', but this trainer was proving hopeless. The dog would not listen and was so distracted and choking himself on the end of the leash, I don't see how he COULD have learned anything. But all the trainer had to offer was more clicker training ideas... THEN, there was a dog at another place who was SO sweet. He was very timid and shy but let me stroke his ears and side. He kept giving little kisses, and I fell in love. Then the trainer put a prong collar on to teach him to heel. This poor dog had his tail tucked between his legs as he was being led away from his owner and seemed to 'slink' lower to the ground at each correction. It seems this dog and the other dog at the clicker class should have changed classes. It just saddens me that so many trainers are so thick-headed. If I were to run a training class, I would try to have as many options as I could to fit the individual dog. I have nothing against prong collars, and nothing against purely positive training. Its all what fits the dog, but so far I haven't found one trainer who agress with me. Sorry for babbling on...lol.
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Post by Brooke on Feb 8, 2005 22:32:08 GMT -5
I agree with you... I think it goes both ways... training should fit the dog not the other way around no matter what...
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Post by greyghost on Feb 8, 2005 23:16:25 GMT -5
Getting stuck happens in every profession. I've had martial arts instructors who thought everyone should be just so strong, or have the ability to move in just such a way, or held that one defense was so superior to others of the same attack... Drove me crazy. I had co-workers in ad design where every ad was done with the same formula. Worked well for some advertisers, not for others. My husband has fellow teachers who try to teach math the same way to every kid, and get annoyed when the kid can't understand it that way. Johnny isn't trying hard enough. blahblahblah. You'd think a dog trainer would realize every dog responds differently. I only have two - two very amazingly different dogs - in temperament, energy level, how they handle discipline, what gets their attention. I'm still trying to figure Cookie out and she is the most mellow creature I have ever seen.
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Post by ixtlan on Feb 9, 2005 17:49:51 GMT -5
Right on! Do it yourself! Teach yourself to be sensitive to each dog you own or train. It's the art of paying attention. I am meeting a few people who are training this way. If you do it you may find yourself relating to those odd primates (humans) in a brand new way too. Good luck.
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Post by Aussienot on Feb 11, 2005 18:35:08 GMT -5
What drives me crazy is that is the human tendancy to believe that if the dog doesn't learn from the style of training imposed, it's the dog's fault! It never seems to dawn on some people that the only purpose of any style of training is to teach so that the trainee understands.
If learning is not happening, then it is the training that has failed. And guess which end of the leash gets to chose the training.
I think both extremes of the philosophical training spectrum can be guilty of the 'my way or the highway' approach.
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BeTrue
Trained
Banned
Posts: 217
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Post by BeTrue on Feb 12, 2005 17:40:02 GMT -5
Yep, very annoying aussienot. If one thing doesn't work, its as if they give up and decide that theres no other alternative. And yes, definately both sides that are 'my way only'.
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Post by icygirlie on Jun 18, 2005 1:05:34 GMT -5
Oh my god. I'm NOT the only person who feels this way? (of joy) thankgodthankgodthankgod. I'm sooo tired of looking for training advice and getting my arse ripped a new one because I dared look at more "aversive" training methods. Just by *observing* my dog I know what collars/methods stand a snowball's chance in Hell with her and which ones might actually get us somewhere. Oh man, I feel soo happy right now.
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Post by Am on Jun 19, 2005 1:03:15 GMT -5
No, Icygirlie, you're not the only one! I can respect the goals of the PP movement - to stop dogs suffering unneccessary pain in the name of training. Some people really are too harsh in their approach to training, and their dogs would benefit from them taking a more 'positive' approach. But in my opinion, that's totally different to taking the "adversives are the work of the devil!" PP approach. Some people seem to be so caught-up by the idea of being "positive" that they fail to realise that training should be about deciding which methods are best for their dog, not which methods make them feel good. If PP methods work for your dog, good for you! But if they don't, well personally I think it's far crueler to keep a dog on leash for years while you wait for a PP method to work, than it would be to use adversives and give the dog its off-leash freedom much sooner. Just my 2 cents.
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Post by Kona on Jun 21, 2005 21:21:39 GMT -5
What drives me crazy is that is the human tendancy to believe that if the dog doesn't learn from the style of training imposed, it's the dog's fault! Right, and then the trainer says, "This dog is untrainable!" and the owner gives up all hope. Argh, makes me so mad.
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Post by kaos on Aug 2, 2006 18:14:10 GMT -5
Personally I think many people also are quick to dismiss a training idea because they have seen it fail when carried out by somebody who was not good at using that technique. For example, in the above case when the dog in a class situation was not responding to clicker training it does not necessarily mean that clicker training won't work for that dog, it could just as easily mean that the instructor was not communicating the style of training clearly enough, or that the handler was not carrying out instructions correctly. Equally it could indicate that the dog was extremely stressed by the group situation and presence of other dogs and actually needed to be worked further away from the group initially or even at home before being ready to join in the class. We can't tell - we don't have enough information.
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Post by willow on Aug 2, 2006 18:54:27 GMT -5
Good point, but it all goes back to if your dog truly respects you as his pack leader or not. If he does not, because you aren't a pack leader, but are thinking of your dog as another human, there isn't any training method you try that will work on your dog. If you are a respected pack leader who is treating your dog like the dog he is, you can make mistakes in training, but he will still respect you and do his best to please you, because being a pack leader means you understand how a dogs mind works and you have phychological control over your dog as well as physical.
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Post by sibemom on Aug 3, 2006 6:57:24 GMT -5
EXACTLY I think clicker training has it's place but NOT as a means to teach a dog, but as a positive marker. I still want to know HOW you do a correction for bad behaviors with a clicker. Do you stand there and click them untill they submit??? I just feel there are better ways. Maybe that is old school but no one will ever make me believe that clickers are a gaurenteed means of training. I think what happened was someone woke up one day stepped on a peice of plastic laying on their floor, saw their dog had a reaction to it, and PRESTO, the clicker was born ;D I know I should'nt put it down but sorry I will never see the benefit of this product and I have asked people to show me and prove to me that this is a good way to start a dog, DID'NT HAPPEN YET
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Post by kaos on Aug 3, 2006 20:03:30 GMT -5
'Good point, but it all goes back to if your dog truly respects you as his pack leader or not. If he does not, because you aren't a pack leader, but are thinking of your dog as another human'
Willow, you are right that a dog is not a human and it is a mistake to treat him as such, but I think you are making a similar mistake - if you are 'pack leader' are you are thinking of yourself 'as a dog? I agree that dogs do need leadership, but we don't have to imitate dogs or wolves to become their leader. A good leader commands respect without needing to bully or dominate, but by being calm and confident. I am not in any way suggesting that your interpretation of 'pack leader' is to bully and dominate, but some do seem to believe this and I guess thats why I don't like the term much. I still believe dogs need boundaries and manners.
'I think clicker training has it's place but NOT as a means to teach a dog'
Sibemum, personally I believe that a clicker is extremely useful for teaching a dog all sorts of things and I could happily demonstrate that with my own dogs. Surely teaching a dog something is about communicating what behaviour you want it to perform in a certain context or in reponse to a cue. This is exactly what you can achieve with a clicker. I am not promoting clicker training for everyone, and there are other perfectly good methods and it's just personal choice, but I think it is just incorrect to state that it can't be used to teach dogs???
'I still want to know HOW you do a correction for bad behaviors with a clicker'
You dont - for me the clicker is a tool which helps the dog to pinpoint the desired behaviour. It is useful for teaching a new behaviour or refining an existing one, not about punishment which is a separate issue. If a dog is performing a behaviour which is undesirable you can choose to train an alternative behaviour or administer an adversive. If a dog fails to perform a trained behaviour you can consider the training at fault and re-train, or you can administer an adversive. Choosing to incorporate punishment is not in itself incompatible to using a clicker to train. Some people who clicker train do also use positive punishments in certain circumstances - that is just personal choice of training philosophy, but others will rely only on negative punishments.
Just for the record, I am not trying to be contraversial or convert anybody, just think it is an interesting debate.
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Post by sibemom on Aug 4, 2006 8:50:55 GMT -5
Your right this is an interesting debate and I think we are all being civial and mature any who now explaine to me how you connect the two words Positive Punishment I agree with positive re enforcement, but maybe I am just not getting what you are trying to say. Punishment is a negative action or consequence for any unwanted action, like the criminal justice system, then postitive re enforcement is for building the wanted behavior, like the rehabilitation process. When a dog associates something negitive to a certain behavior that you are trying to eliminate and then associates something positive with the desired response I think you have a much more reliable dog. If the consequence is not uncomfortable, and I don't mean PAINFUL I mean unpleasant then the chances of them repeating the action are much greater. They need to understand that it is always in their best interest to comply with your request. When I train a dog and if there are certain behaviors that I am trying to eliminate, I want to make sure that I get that done in the quickest amount of time. I have always been one to think that ONE GOOD MOTIVATIONAL correction is better than 30 half hearted ones. When I am show someone how to use a pinch collar I make sure that when they give a correction they do it according to the action of the dog, AND so that they do not have to keep repeating it so it must be done at a level in accordance with the behavior. One thing that angers me is when I see people just walking around popping their dogs with no result, and that is because they are not using the collar correctly. As far as the Pack Leader goes, well you are not thinking like a dog when you portray yourself that way, you are thinking like a human, and since we are suppose to have a better BRAIN CAPACITY than a dog, it would be a given that we would be in charge. With my dogs there is no question who the leader is, that does not mean they do not challange my postition once and awhile, that is what some dogs do, because some are status seeking, so when that does happen, YOU BET I DOMINATE THEM, but not in the sense you are thinking. If you closely watch the interactions of dogs with each other, the more dominant one or ALPHA will calmly and not with alot of force, show the lower ranking dogs that they will not be OVER THROWN and yes sometimes there is a bit of force, but with dogs they do not feel anger the same way we do, similar but not exactly. So when you have an owner who is constantly trying to dominate their dogs in anger YES then there is a problem. A very calm assertive nature is needed to get the respect of our canine friends. Very similar to gaining the respect of your children, and yes the same rules apply. Negative Consequence for bad behavior and Positive re enforcement of good. SIMPLE The only way I can connect Postive Punishment is with the state of mind in which it is delivered. That would be MY THINKING of how this punishment is going to affect behaviors in the future. If I do a good job at getting my point across and the behavior never surfaces again than that in itself is a positive, not the action or the actual means of punishment, but the "END RESULT "
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Post by Dom on Aug 4, 2006 9:59:18 GMT -5
I get confused by the terms "positive/negative punishment" too. The only thing I can offer is a link to the their definitions. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning"Four contexts of operant conditioning: Here the terms "positive" and "negative" are not used in their popular sense, but rather: "positive" refers to addition, and "negative" refers to subtraction. What is added or subtracted may be either reinforcement or punishment. Hence positive punishment is sometimes a confusing term, as it denotes the addition of punishment (such as spanking or an electric shock), a context that may seem very negative in the lay sense. The four situations are:
Positive reinforcement occurs when a behavior (response) is followed by an appetitive (commonly seen as pleasant) stimulus that increases that behavior. In the Skinner box experiment, a stimulus such as food or sugar solution is present when the rat presses the lever.
Negative reinforcement occurs when a behavior (response) is followed by the removal of an aversive (commonly seen as unpleasant) stimulus thereby increasing that behavior. In the Skinner box experiment, negative reinforcement is a loud noise continuously sounding inside the rat's cage until it presses the lever, when the noise ceases.
Positive punishment occurs when a behavior (response) is followed by an aversive stimulus, such as introducing a shock or loud noise, resulting in a decrease in that behavior.
Negative punishment occurs when a behavior (response) is followed by the removal of an appetitive stimulus, such as taking away a child's toy, resulting in a decrease in that behavior. "I can sorta understand it by definition but not sure how it is applied. My brain hurts.
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