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Post by Aussienot on May 11, 2006 0:35:55 GMT -5
We haven't had a debate in a while, and there may or may not be a debatable topic here.
People have called my dog ownership policies harsh because I control the resources, because I make the decisions and because I enforce pack rules. My house, my toys, my job to lead. I think I'm reasonable, but you know how sometimes you don't realize how far to the left or the right you are until you see something that is just a tad too far even for you?
On another discussion board there's a long thread on a novice dog owner rescuing a 4 yo male Akita because the owners " don't have time for him". Code for he's uncontrollably aggressive. Red flags in all over his posts, and lots of well meaning advice everywhere. The new owner is all hung up on bonding. The board owner posted:
"Pack leaders don't care if their dogs love them- they only care if they are subordinate to them. "
I have to admit I took a deep breath at that line. Ok, yes, I understand what he's saying and kind of believe it, to a point. And this particular owner needed to hear it.
But I care if my dogs love me, it's the primary reason I have dogs. I don't want respect out of submission., I want them to be fairly happy to be in my pack. Can love and leadership co-exist? Or does a good leader not care, as long as the leadership is respected?
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Post by Nicole on May 11, 2006 4:59:12 GMT -5
I only have a second, so I am going to be brief. I agree with that comment but, and this is a big but, we aren’t dogs, we are humans. So we do care about love. I think that dogs learn to alter their behavior to do things that we interpret as “love” which to a dog is pleasing to his pack leader and thus respectful or submissive. For every behavior we interpret as love I can give an alternate interpretation from the dog’s point of view. A dog is happy to see you...not because he “loves” you, but because his pack is back together etc. etc. We have changed the rules because we are not dogs or wolves and relationships to US are based upon feelings. Dogs don’t think that way. Most people do not understand this and end up having huge problems with their dogs because of this.
I think that love and leadership can coexist as long as they actually do coexist. There must be leadership. Love as we express it must be expressed carefully in conjunction with leadership. If it was all leadership and we weren't able to express love I don't know that the relationship would be fulfilling. And when it is all love that is a huge problem. I am talking pet dogs here not working dogs.
Great topic!!
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Post by sibemom on May 11, 2006 6:59:24 GMT -5
GREAT TOPIC Over the past few years I have seen more uncontrolable dogs then I care to. The question to WHY is because of the idea HUMANS have that a dog must be reared with the idea that if you are to strict with them THEY WON'T LOVE YOU. Well as Nicki said LOVE is a human emotion and we humans have put WAY TO MUCH of our own feelings into training a dog, and using our feelings as a guide line to how a dog thinks and feels. Of course there is a bond between you and your dog, and becuase of the natural instinct for dogs needing to FOLLOW a leader. Now in the case of the dog with the Alpha mentality they need more structure and more guidence to understand that they are not in charge, they are not the ruler of the pack. I tend to be more of the old school with a harsh diciplines a times but I make everything very clear to my dogs so that they are never confused as to how this PACK works. I love my dogs but to actually believe that they love me, even though we use that term when talking aobut them, I would tend to believe more that they RESPECT me and all other two legged memebers of our pack. I think when we allow our own emotions to interfere with something that nature has instilled and forget that these are animals, who do not do things out of love but out of a primal instinct that is when we loose. I see it over and over with PP training where yes to some extent the dogs to respond but I also think it is confusing to them. If you study a wolf pack which is the closest link we have to true dog behaviors and why they do the things they do you will see that the Alpha never rewards in our sense of the word, they reward by allowing the subordantes to EXIST. They rule fairly but with consecences and the rest of the pack respects that. Do I think my dogs love me? Not like we humans perceive love, but they do enjoy my company and they do depend on me for their needs. They look to me for their survival and also protection and they inturn respond by protecting me, also normal wolf pack behavior. I on the other hand LOVE MY DOGS, and I do think we have a bond but again not in the human emotion sense but in the age old LEADER OF THE PACK reality
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Post by Richard on May 11, 2006 7:00:33 GMT -5
As far as I'm concerned, love and respect need to coexist for a successful human/dog relationship. My dogs respect me because I've learned to be a strong and consistent, yet fair Alpha. We, like Aussie, have "pack rules" in our home. To some, it might be overkill but with two large dogs, control and communication are very important. As well, it's worth noting, I had to earn their trust and respect. In return, they get lots of hands-on love and care, time on the couch with me, twice daily walks, food at 5pm daily, fresh water ect ect. I think this gives them a sense of belonging and stability within the pack. Submissiveness out of fear is not always the best course of action but to enforce the rules of the pack, the alpha will expect some level of submissiveness from lower pack members to show they know they've either busted a rule or acted in an inappropriate manner. In our case, it's just a tone of voice that we'll use. I also think the submissiveness aspect plays a part in acknowledging who is in charge of the pack too. For the first year with us, Nikki wouldn't roll over on her own and let us pet her stomach - we never forced the issue either. With Rocky, it's not a problem - he willingly will roll over and show his belly - only with us though. With Nikki, since the new year, she appears to be comfortable enough with me now to roll on her side or back for the "belly rub" routine from me. While that may not seem like much to some, it was important for me to see and her to finally show that she trusts me enough to allow me to put her in that vulnerable position while acknowledging me as pack leader - of course, while getting scratched in all the right places too!
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Post by sibemom on May 11, 2006 7:17:31 GMT -5
I agree with that Richard I suppose I should add to that when ever I disciplin the dogs I never do it out of anger, SOMETIMES THAT'S A HARD ONE LOL, but it's like with my kids to NEVER DO OR DID I DSCIPLIN them when I was angery. So when training a dog any punishment comes for their own good and because I want them to be clear on what I expect. Dogs are very simple creatures not the complex animals that we like to make them out to be. They do have alot more potential then we give them credit for but still very simple because they do not allow emotions to get in the way of their daily existance, they live by instinct and conditioning with no DRAMA, wish we were like that;)
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Post by Richard on May 11, 2006 8:27:46 GMT -5
Looks like we posted about the same time Ann and I think you hit the nail on the head.
In essence, it's all about perception and attitude of the dog handler.
Off topic for a second: the guy with the 4yr old Akita rescue has his hands full. With no training or boundaries set by the previous owner, that is a recipe for disaster. The bonding part he (the Akita owner) was alluding to won't come quickly. It's a result of time, hard work, training, instilling the pack mentality in the dog and a lot of patience and most of all the owner being a strong alpha and the dog respecting that fact. I just don't see being "buddies" with that Akita right from the start.
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Post by willow on May 11, 2006 9:37:44 GMT -5
Excellent topic and excellent comments! I can't think of anything you, Nicki, Sibemom and Richard have missed here, so to comment on the question would be redundant.
What I will comment on, however, is how/why we have gotten so far off track with our dogs. I think the problem is:
1. People who supply us with pet products, from dog food to supplements and every thing in between. (*if you don't buy my product for your dog, you don't love him.) and (if you want your dog to really love you, buy him my product.) The objective, of course, is to buy their products, which in turn is lots of $$$$ in their pockets.
2. Trainer's. "If you correct your dog in any form, he will be afraid of you and will not love you."
I think we all know all the other "reasons" trainer's tell us why not to correct, and people who believe dogs have human emotions, feelings etc. are all too happy to buy into this, and seek out these type of trainer's, which means...you guessed it. More $$$$ in their pockets. With so many (so called) trainer's out there now, they have to continually try to come up with a "gimmick" that will appeal to pet owner's or people won't go to them and they won't be able to make a living. Plus, these people who promote this type of training have no real knowledge of how a dogs mind works and don't want to learn. It is the old, "my mind is made up, don't confuse me with the facts," mentality.
3. Veterinarians. Again, like pet product suppliers, they prey on people's emotions. "If you don't use/buy for your pet what I am promoting, you don't love your dog and are being cruel to him." They also tell people what they want to hear so people will choose them as a Vet., which of course means, a better living for them.
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Post by Tammi21 on Jul 11, 2006 15:51:27 GMT -5
I only know bare-bones about training.
But your post reminded me of something I seen a long time ago.
It was a documentary about wolves. In that pack there was a vary subservient female wolf. And she was very skinny and old. All the other wolves seemed to not care about her. She would always eat the last. (as they do in a pack)
But then one day when they were hunting, “I think” she got hurt and died not long after that.
Well you would think they the other wolves wouldn’t care. (One less mouth to feed.)
But no they were all very visibly upset. Even the alpha was calling for her. And trying to get her to wake up. (it still makes me sad to think about it)
They stayed with her body for days and there was no doubt that the pack was mourning.
So I think, if the alpha can get upset, about the lowliest member of the pack dying. Then yes I think love should, and can, exist between the alpha, and the subordinate.
Without love what to you have? What point is there in life without love?
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Post by kaos on Jul 23, 2006 15:21:36 GMT -5
This is an interesting question. It reminds me of that horrible 'nanny' programme - have you seen it? The nanny goes into a household where the children have no boundaries or discipline and are badly behaved. Very often the children appear very unhappy and stressed, and interestingly the introduction of sensible leadership, boundaries and consequences usually result in a much happier and more loving child. My point is that many people don't want to upset their dogs by introducing boundaries, but in fact usually dogs like children are happier and more secure when they understand consistent boundaries.
I personally don't believe you generally need to use physical corrections in order to establish and maintain boundaries and appropriate discipline, and in fact the programme also illustrates brilliantly how violence on the part of the parents breeds violence on the part of the child. Where hitting is practiced by the parents, very often the children will be agressive towards their sibblings, friends and even the parents.
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Post by espencer85 on Sept 21, 2006 10:31:22 GMT -5
Pack leaders don't care if their dogs love them- they only care if they are subordinate to them. You should answer with another question " do you love your kids when you are telling them to behave? Do the kids stop loving you because you did that?" Kids just like dogs need discipline, if not then they will grow up thinking they can do whatever they want without respect anybody, do you want to have somebody who respects and is respected or somebody who is a brat and everybody hates?
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Post by Aussienot on Sept 21, 2006 21:45:53 GMT -5
Discipline and love are not mutually exclusive and that is not the topic. Please don't quote me out of context, or attribute to me characteristics and behaviours that don't exist in my household.
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Post by espencer85 on Sept 22, 2006 8:57:03 GMT -5
Discipline and love are not mutually exclusive and that is not the topic. Please don't quote me out of context, or attribute to me characteristics and behaviours that don't exist in my household. Wow, big missunderstanding from your part here , actually i was quoting the same thing that person said and i was backing you up in the subject ;D So like i said - and yes you are totally right - you can have discipline and love at the same time, not because my mom gave me discipline i stopped loving her, same with a dog, no discipline, no balance
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