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Post by Brooke on Oct 26, 2005 21:25:11 GMT -5
I am aware of what pits were bred for. I understand they were not being bred to be aggressive to humans. I am actually a fan of the bully breeds. Is it better to breed the aggression or dominance be it animal or dog out of them? I guess I'm going to take the whole pitbull portion out of this because honestly I don't know that pitbulls are going to drive this conversation in a productive manner. I 'm not looking for people to get defensive and miss the point I'm going towards.
What I was trying to get acrossed ...is it good to deflate the natural abilities and traits that don't necessarily work well in our busy world of today, of certain dog breeds and call it betterment?
Here's a better example...for instance I heard Loey talking about this one a while back.
Would it constitute betterment to take the herding drive out of BC's to stop them from nipping at childrens heels? It may be better for families but does it better the breed standard to remove the drives that are instilled in them? Do we judge it from that standpoint or from what people should be able and willing to live with so that they will have a better opportunity to live in a home throughout the whole duration of it's life. Is it better to breed a breed known for high energy into a dog that will work better in an apartment setting?
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Post by Nicole on Oct 27, 2005 17:46:43 GMT -5
Brooke, I was thinking the same thing as you. What about this. And let me first say that I have not read every post in this thread. Sorry. But at some point in the past dogs began, right. Did the BC just appear. Did the GSD just appear. Did the JRT just appear. No. These dogs were created....right. If I am not mistaken and I will say I am not that knowledgeable about the history of dogs. But weren’t all of these dogs created because of a particular need at the time...hog catching, herding, bear fighting, mole catching. The breeders of that day bred the dogs to have these drives because this is what they needed. I don’t think that these needs are present in great abundance today and yet people are breeding and buying these dogs with these drives and not letting them do what they were bred for because quite simply we don’t have moles and bears and sheep in most places. So...is continuing the breeding of these drives for the betterment of the breed. I think that breeding a BC with excellent herding drives and selling it to a pet home causes agony to the dog. Yet 90% of dog owners are pet owners. So why keep breeding them. For whom. Where is the need? How many actually herd. Is it done to show the world that you bred a driven dog...and then what. What is done with the dog. He walks around a ring. He ends up with a couch potato? My bet is that he ends up without sheep.
It is pointless...more pointless than breeding a mutt who will be better suited to not herding because the drives are not that strong. Why breed a herding dog on purpose when no one herds. I just don’t get that. Or a JRT. Who has moles that it wants a JRT to get rid of?
But on the other hand, breeding out the drive to make a better pet is creating mentally and physically ill dogs. So what is the answer. Maybe, you may not own a BC unless you have sheep, so we will stop breeding so many...or....lets breed anyway and sell to a pet home so the dogs are miserable and they end up in a shelter. As I see it I don’t think there is a purpose to breed for the betterment because it is not the betterment for the dog that ends up without sheep in an apartment.
Not sure if I have made sense here.
I don’t particularly care for any purebred for a pet. I like my mutt...a bit of many things but not so strong that it can’t be managed. Same with the health issues. But then again I don’t have sheep or bears or moles.
I am not opposed to making great mutts. That is our need. Pet mutts. And notice I say “great” mutts not products of BYB that end up in the shelters because they are mess temperamentally and physically. But with the caveat that it is done by skilled people who have a plan. How is this different from the argument that we are breeding the dogs for the needs of the time. When they mixed dogs eons ago and created whatever breed, would you shoot those people that created the GSD in the beginning.
I will end by saying that so far to my knowledge, breeding out drive and breeding for looks etc has just screwed up dogs period.
But there must be an answer as to how to do this while creating a good healthy sound dog. Maybe a new dog that isn’t a gsd without drive or lab without drive. Maybe just a new series of pet dogs that in eons to come will not be considered mutts any more.
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Post by willow on Oct 28, 2005 13:41:23 GMT -5
Good question. (what is betterment of the breed?) and good points made here. ;D As Nicki said, all registered dogs are "mutts" to begin with, because all registered dogs are a mix of other breeds.
I don't think I have an answer to that question, but I certainly don't think it is breeding out of a dog, what was first bred into it. i.e., herding instinct.
I think one thing that would help is what was already touched on: Don't sell a high drive dog that was bred for a specific purpose to some one who is not going to use the dog for that purpose. "Good breeder's" will sell their dogs with high drive to people who are looking for such a dog to use for herding, Field Trials etc. and the ones that don't quite measure up are sold as "pets". Trouble with that is it's hard to tell at 8-10 weeks of age with a certainty, which ones will be good "working dogs" and which ones will make good non-working "pets".
It basically goes right back to both unscrupulous breeder's and the ignorant public again.
The breeder who is into it just for the money just wants to sell the pups and they don't care who gets them or what happens to them after they have the $$$$ in their hand.
The public just wants to be able to say, "I have a Border Collie just like in the movie, 'Babe''', or they actually think that breed, or any other breed the film industry paints as a wonderful intelligent breed that can think and figure things out for themselves does not need e-x-e-r-c-i-s-e and t-r-a-i-n-i-n-g to become the perfect family dog. They think they come that way, and the movie industry is guilty for perpetrating that misconception.
I like most Walt Disney movies about animals too, but I know that all wild animals are potentially dangerous and you are asking for trouble if you think you can walk up to one and pet it. Unfortunately, there are tons of people out there who think wild animals are like the ones in the films. I also know that the BC who can figure out on his own what to do with a herd of sheep the first time he sees one is just about non-existent.
Unfortunately, there are tons of people out there that don't realize that either, because they do it in the movies, don't they?
I also think organizations like PETA actually do a lot more harm to animals than helping them....especially wild animals, but that is another topic for another day. ;D
I guess what I am trying to say in my "ramblings" is that in the end, if your BC nips your children's heels as a puppy...that's natural, but if it does it as an adult dog that is YOUR fault for not t-r-a-i-n-i-n-g your BC not to, and this applies equally to the BC that is used for what it was bred to do, or the one who is "just a family pet". They do not come trained knowing that nipping heels is not acceptable, but they are very capable of learning, with training, what is acceptable to herd and what is not.
Of course, if you are not going to use your dog for what it was bred for, you can still have a well behaved and calm pet, but you absolutely must give it another outlet for it's instinctive traits and high drive, along with the necessary obedience training.
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Post by Richard on Oct 28, 2005 13:44:36 GMT -5
I now Rowan hasn't been around here for a while (busy girl she that she is) but she struck me as someone dedicated to the betterment of the GSD breedline..especially the North Amercian bloodlines.
Look at some of her earlier posts, you'll see some beautiful GSD's that she has bred. Here is someone that truly wants to better the breed! She is committed to her chosen breed and works hard to make it right.
To me, this is the type of mentality that makes a breeder one that I consider worthy of merit.
I own 2 GSDs (ok no secret) and the breeder we got them from has very high standards too. They use German Bloodlines and it's evident in the way they work that their dogs are close too what Max von Stephanitz invisioned so many years ago.
My point here is that if people demand it enough, they'll get the perfect breed of dog. To me that is wrong. We already have test tube babies that people can custom order to thier liking, why mess around with breeds of dogs to satisfy lazy people who only want the better part of the breed?
I just think that it's necesary to stay true to breedlines. The originators of these breeds (ok, GSD for instance) had a vision and a plan for them. To breed a GSD with no drive and no natural protection insticts is stupid and really is an insult to Max von Stephanitz. It's bad enough the NA breeders have taken his dog and turned it into some almost freakshow appearance that really has nothing to do with the original line.
It comes back to the potential purchaser knowing what he or she is getting with a particular breed. Too many breeders today are willing to sacrifice certian "key" elements of breed characteristics to satisfy a need from those who only want "perfect" dogs.
It's BS...you need to take the WHOLE package, not just the best parts. Anything less and you do a diservice to those who worked hard to bring us the breeds and what makes them unique.
Between those breeders who have no concern for the breedline and history (and only have $$$ as a priority) to the owners who want only perfect dogs, you need not look any further as to who to blame for the mess we're in.
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Post by willow on Oct 28, 2005 13:51:53 GMT -5
Richard, you said it so much better than I did, as usual! ;D
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Post by Richard on Oct 28, 2005 13:55:33 GMT -5
Funny, Loey, I was gonna say the same thing about your post!
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